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LEGISLATIVE TASK FORCE ON DEMOGRAPHIC RESEARCH AND REAPPORTIONMENT BROOKLYN HEARING REAPPORTIONMENT 2000 Polytechnic University 5 Metrotech Center Jay Street Brooklyn, New York Friday, May 18, 2001 9:50 A.M. |
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7 LEGISLATIVE TASK FORCE
8 ON DEMOGRAPHIC RESEARCH
9 AND REAPPORTIONMENT
10 CONGRESSIONAL AND STATE
11 LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING
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17 Polytechnic University
18 5 Metrotech Center
19 Jay Street
20 Brooklyn, New York
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24 Friday, May 18, 2001
25 9:50 A.M.
EN-DE REPORTING, A Spherion Agency
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2 TASK FORCE MEMBERS:
3 ASSEMBLYMAN WILLIAM L. PARMENT,
4 Co-Chairman
5 ASSEMBLYMAN CHRIS ORTLOFF
6 SENATOR DEAN G. SKELOS,
7 Co-Chairman
8 SENATOR RICHARD A. DOLLINGER
9 ROMAN B. HEDGES,
10 Member
11 VINCENT BRUY,
12 Member
13 DEBRA LEVINE,
14 Co-Executive Director
15 LEWIS M. HOPPE,
16 Co-Executive Director
17 ASSEMBLYMAN FELIX W. ORTIZ
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2 SPEAKERS:
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4 JOHN FLATEAU 8
5 FRAN VELLA-MARRONE 31
6 CHRIS STRUNK 35
7 DAVID RYAN 44
8 BRADLEY STEPHENS 52
9 ESMERALDA SIMMONS 54
10 RABBI EDGAR GLUCK 78
11 LARRY MORRISH 83
12 PERSIDA ROMAN 97
13 ALIYA KUERBAN 100
14 JOEL FARBER 102
15 KRISTIAN FERNANDEZ 103
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EN-DE REPORTING, A Spherion Agency
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2 SENATOR SKELOS: Good morning, my
3 name is State Senator Dean Skelos. This is
4 our fourth hearing of, I believe, 11 that we
5 are holding throughout the state to get the
6 input from the public about how the
7 congressional state senate and assembly lines
8 should be drawn for the next election to be
9 held in the year 2002.
10 We look forward to your input, and
11 certainly everything that you say will be part
12 of our consideration process as we begin what
13 is a very long and, quite frankly, tedious
14 process.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
16 Let me just point out that the task
17 force that is taking hearings is the task
18 force established by state law to recommend to
19 the houses of the state legislature the plan
20 for redistricting of congressional districts
21 in New York and the state assembly and state
22 senate. It is comprised of six members
23 appointed jointly by the majority leader of
24 the senate on one hand and the speaker of the
25 assembly on the other.
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2 With that I will say welcome.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just briefly,
4 this is, as the chair described, the fourth
5 hearingS in this process. We have more
6 hearing to go as we gather information prior
7 to the preparation of a draft plan. If we are
8 consistent with prior years, we will at some
9 point come back to Brooklyn, although not
10 necessarily here, with a proposed plan that we
11 would bring back to the community and show
12 them how we have taken community input and
13 balanced the other important factors for
14 compactness and proper apportionment, our
15 voting rights obligation, our constitutional
16 obligations. How we have prepared a plan to
17 address those concerns.
18 I made an extensive series of
19 remarks about public input and the importance
20 of it yesterday. My hope is that the
21 commission will have a meeting in Albany in
22 which we will further refine our procedures
23 for public input and comment not only at this,
24 the initial phase, but at later phases as
25 well.
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2 I look forward to the testimony
3 today. It's been a lively three days of
4 hearings thus far, and I expect Brooklyn will
5 give us more of the same. Welcome again and
6 we look forward to your comments.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: This is a
8 process which is set forth in the constitution
9 and in the state statutes and also in very
10 substantial body of federal case law. The
11 point of saying so is to make a very strong
12 point to everyone here that while it may
13 appear that the six people on this task force,
14 which by the way is completely bipartisan,
15 have unlimited choices about how to draw the
16 lines, our choices are rather severely
17 constrained before we even begin.
18 They are constrained by
19 population. They are constrained by ethnic
20 identity of the neighborhood and federal case
21 law and the federal Voting Rights Act. There
22 are many, many things that we heard people
23 request of us, wish to happen. Things like
24 keeping certain neighborhoods together. Which
25 frankly cannot happen because of the
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2 requirements of the federal Voting Rights
3 Act.
4 We need for everybody to understand
5 that we live in the real world. A world in
6 which the processes are defined. We are
7 following the process which we are required to
8 follow, and it's rather constraining.
9 So we will do our best to take the
10 concerns expressed here and around the state
11 to try to reflect, but recognize that we are
12 not omnipotent, nor are we able to start fresh
13 with a clean slate. We live in a real world,
14 and we want to hear the details of the real
15 world that people live in and work in.
16 Our objective is to create
17 districts for the next ten years that allow
18 the neighborhoods, communities, citizens of
19 this state to elect representatives that best
20 suit and serve them in the congress and senate
21 and the state assembly.
22 With that, we welcome your comments
23 today.
24 SENATOR SKELOS: We would ask all
25 witness to keep their comments -- we have an
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2 extensive list -- to five minutes. And also
3 ask if you can focus, although I know we all
4 are concerned, not everybody, but certainly
5 concerned about their incumbents.
6 Reapportionment involves growing districts.
7 And what we would like to know is more about
8 the districts that you are seeking to be drawn
9 than the good works of your incumbent.
10 We welcome the people from the 31st
11 congressional district that is in the southern
12 tier of New York State, Pennsylvania border.
13 They have been paying attention to all of the
14 redistricting and we welcome you to Brooklyn.
15 Assemblyman Nick Perry? No?
16 John Flateau.
17 MR. FLATEAU: Good morning. My
18 name is John Flateau. I'm a Dean at Medgars
19 Evers College and direct two centers, the
20 DeBois Bunche Center for Public Policy, which
21 is a research center, and the Census
22 Information Center, which is a federally
23 designated repository for census data and
24 information. I have a number of affiliations
25 which are listed also at the end of my
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2 remarks.
3 Those affiliations have helped me
4 bring together what I think are some important
5 points to raise here this morning. And one of
6 them, the first is that I would urge that the
7 members of the task force find a way to have
8 persons of color appointed to this task force
9 and ensure that they are in senior management
10 positions with the new acronym LTDR. Please
11 excuse the LATFOR. I understand it's now
12 Legislative Task Force on Demographics and
13 Reapportionment.
14 Secondly, on the question of public
15 education. You are commended for moving these
16 hearings throughout the state. But also
17 information conferences we think would be
18 important. I would put on the record now that
19 there is a census information conference June
20 16th at CUNY graduate center, and we have
21 extended formal invitations to the cochairs of
22 this task force and copies to your coexecutive
23 directors.
24 Mr. Marshall Turner from the
25 national office, the chief of the
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2 redistricting office, will be on the panel.
3 So we would hope that if you cannot personally
4 attend to send a high level representative to
5 participate in that event.
6 The third item on my testimony
7 mentions intergroup dialogue. I think that
8 almost goes without saying, so I will move on
9 to the next point. It's important that we
10 communicate upstate, downstate and across
11 racial and ethnic lines so that the avenues of
12 communication and negotiations are open as we
13 go forward.
14 Public access to data is another
15 very important issue. I think, if I recall a
16 recent news item, the senate task force on
17 electoral reform is recommending the creation
18 of a state-wide database. And I think that
19 will go a long way towards creating an
20 opportunity for the public to have access to
21 political data and information.
22 But in the short run we are
23 recommending that here in New York that
24 whatever data sets, political and electoral
25 data sets that are created in your process
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2 that you make them available on the Internet.
3 There are a number of states throughout the
4 country that already have that process set
5 up.
6 Publishing redistricting criteria,
7 and I believe it was Assemblyman Ortloff that
8 made reference to some of those. Perhaps a
9 simple way to consolidate that information
10 would be to put that information in your
11 periodic newsletter. Put that type of
12 information out there so that those that
13 aren't professional demographers know what the
14 ground rules are, what the parameters are,
15 what kind of information you are looking to
16 come back to this task force. So publishing
17 of the redistricting criteria will be
18 important.
19 Number 6, alternative plan
20 submissions. I have been thinking about this
21 issue. Very specific recommendation that you
22 accept single district plans. If a group or
23 organization comes in and all they know about
24 is their assembly district, and again, once
25 you give the parameters, you want to see the
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2 census track data, you want to know what the
3 boundaries are, that that should suffice in
4 terms of your highly competent technical staff
5 reviewing that particular recommendation.
6 That is opposed to county-wide plans or
7 requiring an entire assembly plan because
8 someone wants to talk about their district and
9 their community.
10 Comprehensive hearing process. I
11 think you are to be commended for getting your
12 round off the ground, but it was a little hard
13 to pin down this information. Initially it
14 was kind of short public notice. So we would
15 urge something like a 30-day public hearing
16 notice.
17 Also consider evening and weekend
18 hours. Particularly evening hours. My office
19 happens to be across the mall in Metrotech.
20 But everyone who would like to be here, a lot
21 of folks are working. Community folks. So
22 evening hours, if you would consider that as
23 part of your scheduling I think would go a
24 long way.
25 State senate redistricting issue.
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2 The number of seats. Settling that issue will
3 be important for folks to know what is the
4 median population for a size that a senate
5 district should be. That's a legislative
6 matter resolved by the two houses. I know
7 it's beyond the purview of this specific task
8 force. But that would help us know what the
9 ground rules are going forward.
10 The role of the governor. I'm not
11 going to speak for the governor because I
12 don't work for the governor, but it's clear
13 that he's in this process.
14 Finally, a congressional
15 redistricting and statistical adjustment. I
16 know there are already, I understand from the
17 Manhattan hearing, some discussion about
18 whether or not New York City should eat,
19 swallow, digest the loss of a congressional
20 seat.
21 If you look at the total population
22 in '90 and 2000 and divide that by the median
23 population for those two congressional
24 districts, New York City could have,
25 theoretically, had 12 and a half congressional
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2 seats. They were actually spread out because
3 some moved into the suburbs. 12.5 in 1990 and
4 with the new numbers it looks like about 12
5 and a quarter. 12.2, 12.3 seats. So there's
6 still very much a possibility to keep the size
7 of New York City's congressional district
8 intact. I certainly don't believe that it
9 should be a foregone conclusion that New York
10 City must lose one congressional district.
11 Finally, the issue of statistical
12 adjustment is not a fait accompli at this
13 time. Because of federal statue the census
14 bureau was required to release or to authorize
15 release of data in time for redistricting.
16 They said at that time they felt that the best
17 data to release was the raw data. But that
18 final decision has not been made yet.
19 Again, this body and we hope the
20 legislature will take some action to urge that
21 the census bureau statistically adjust New
22 York State's data so that hopefully we are
23 only talking about a loss of perhaps one
24 congressional seat depending on the outcome.
25 Those are some key points. I think
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2 I have kept within my time frame.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I want to
4 talk about the statistically adjusted census
5 data the Supreme Court, I think, has told us
6 that we can't use that for congressional
7 reapportionment but that we could use it for
8 other purposes.
9 Given your position in the census
10 information center, can you just tell me what
11 the undercount numbers look like for the City
12 of New York and for the rest of the state of
13 New York? Do you have any estimate of that?
14 MR. FLATEAU: It's somewhere
15 between five and ten percent. I would say in
16 communities of color it's closer to the ten
17 percent range and overall statewide I think
18 they released a number in the four to five
19 percent range. The preliminary estimates for
20 New York State.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would it be
22 your opinion if we could get that data we
23 ought to try to get it just for the purposes
24 of evaluating its impact on either the state
25 senate or the assembly reapportionment
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2 regardless of whether we can use it in on the
3 congressional level?
4 MR. FLATEAU: I would say
5 absolutely yes. I would go a step further and
6 urge that you use statistically adjusted data
7 for redistricting state assembly and state
8 senate seats throughout the state. You do
9 have that option. Every state has the option
10 to use statistically adjusted data below
11 congressional district level redistricting.
12 MR. HEDGES: John, good to see
13 you. You have been a constructive force for
14 20 years in this process and it's good to see
15 you back.
16 Are you planning to submit plans?
17 MR. FLATEAU: It's interesting.
18 One of the reasons I asked to be here early is
19 because state legislators have reached out to
20 our center for technical assistance in their
21 redistricting efforts. So, as a service
22 center we will probably be assisting groups
23 and individuals, could be legislators, who I
24 suspect are only going to submit their own
25 plan.
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2 We also have -- are exploring the
3 possibility of doing some state-wide or
4 regional plan. For example, a New York City
5 plan or a downstate plan. Something of that
6 nature.
7 MR. HEDGES: I would urge you to
8 do that as we try to move forward.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Let me just
10 ask a few questions. The more people that
11 have the ability to draw plans the better, not
12 just the better plan, but the better people
13 will understand the plan. I would say this to
14 everyone in the room. Technology today and
15 the expense being relatively modest now,
16 perhaps the most important thing that that
17 exercise may do, and I would ask you to
18 comment on this, would be for folks to
19 understand how difficult the process is. And
20 then to be able to dialogue, if I'm not
21 misreading where you are coming from, to be
22 able to say not why did you do that from a
23 position of little information, but we did
24 this differently. Why don't you do this?
25 Don't you agree that would be more
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2 constructive?
3 MR. FLATEAU: Absolutely. You're
4 right on the technology issue. In fact,
5 because we are a census information center we
6 have the same PL 94171 data you have, and we
7 intend to make it accessible to anybody that
8 walks through the door. It's on a CD-Rom, and
9 you can print it out in a matter of seconds.
10 We are getting a lot of calls on that now.
11 The only thing we are lacking is the people
12 power to keep up with the appointments.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Your
14 recommendation is that we accept single
15 district plans?
16 MR. FLATEAU: Yes. Because you
17 are going to have a lot of groups who only
18 know their neighborhood or their corner of the
19 county or their town. So I would think if
20 that's what they can come up with then this
21 body should give that submission serious
22 consideration.
23 SENATOR SKELOS: We did accept
24 single district plans ten years ago.
25 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: In the
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2 course of this dialogue, it may end up being
3 more of a dialogue between computers, between
4 plans, between computers files. I wonder if
5 your recommendation that we put all of the
6 data on the Internet is really sufficient. Or
7 should we have standards that expressly talk
8 to equivalency files and the ability of two
9 computers to talk to one another? The ability
10 of you looking through the task force's data
11 port rather than to a map. To what extent can
12 we use the technology better today?
13 MR. FLATEAU: I would lobby for
14 total access, read only of course. I assume
15 you wouldn't want write access to your data.
16 But for us to be able to call it up on a
17 screen. There may be certain things that you
18 want to have fire walls around and even an act
19 of deminition could not have access to. I
20 think that's your prerogative. But I think
21 you make the basic point that the technology
22 is so accessible now. Everybody has GIS
23 software sitting on their PCs right now. Not
24 everybody. Some of us. And we are going to
25 make that accessible.
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2 So the issue then only becomes what
3 kind of data other than census data, political
4 data, demographic data can people look at so
5 they can begin to make sense of this process.
6 So I think you're right.
7 If people have the ability to
8 create their own scenario and then they bump
9 up against someone else's scenario and they
10 can sit down and intelligently converse about
11 why or why not or see that technically A and B
12 don't fit together, then we'll take a lot of
13 rancor and competitiveness out of the process
14 and we can get down to some serious
15 negotiation where at the end of the day all
16 parties will feel that they have come away
17 with a fair process that helped to reconstruct
18 their legislative representation going
19 forward.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I have one
21 final question.
22 You mentioned the governor in the
23 process. Have you dialogued with the
24 governor?
25 MR. FLATEAU: Oh, yes. His staff
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2 has been by to visit our center and a number
3 of other civil rights, voting rights advocacy
4 groups. I made referrals. They said who else
5 should we talk to? I gave them four or five
6 more people to talk to. They participated in
7 the census information conferences.
8 So I would urge this body -- we are
9 here before you, but when you receive
10 invitations to come before other bodies so you
11 can help educate the broader public, I think
12 it would be important and a positive public
13 relations, community relations gesture on your
14 part to participate in these other forums that
15 people are going to pull together so they can
16 understand and be educated about this very,
17 very important process.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: When you
19 extend those invitations it would be most
20 appreciative and helpful if you would extend
21 one to the minority members.
22 MR. FLATEAU: There are six
23 members and two executive directors here. I
24 formally wrote to the two cochairs and copied
25 the two coexecutives directors. You want me
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2 to send out eight letters every time get me an
3 additional secretary. I'm being facetious on
4 that point.
5 It would be good to publish a list
6 then with your mailing addresses for the
7 general public. I'm sure we would all love to
8 communicate with you extensively over the next
9 18 months.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I did want
11 to get back to your testimony about
12 congressional district apportionment and the
13 impact on the City of New York.
14 As I understood your testimony, you
15 indicated in 1990 that the population of the
16 city of New York would get translated into
17 approximately 12.5 seats for the city. Then I
18 think you said the 2000 census that would
19 translate to 12.25 seats.
20 I ask, do you see that that
21 entitles the City of New York to
22 representation by 14 members of the
23 congressional delegation?
24 MR. FLATEAU: Parts of 14 members
25 in the current congressional delegation.
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2 Because you have certain districts, such as
3 Ackerman who went out to Nassau, and Nita
4 Lowey is a tri-county district. She goes from
5 Westchester, I believe -- does she run through
6 the Bronx? Across the top of Queens and out
7 to Nassau. No Nassau.
8 So, what happened there was, you
9 could have drawn, theoretically, 12 and a half
10 seats wholly within the city limits. But
11 instead the legislature, in its wisdom,
12 stretched things out a little bit. I don't
13 see much difference between 12.5 where we had
14 14 seats and 12.25. I think with your
15 legendary creativity New York City could hold
16 on to its 14 congressional seats without too
17 much wear and tear on your computer.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: But would
19 it be your position that the population of the
20 City of New York in regard to the total
21 population of the state of New York and the
22 number of congressional seats would show, in
23 fact, a diminishment for the city of New York
24 rather than --
25 MR. FLATEAU: Very slight.
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2 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: But a
3 diminishment.
4 MR. FLATEAU: Yes, but not enough
5 to lose one congressional seat and 655,000
6 people.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: In creating
8 districts that would in effect link the City
9 of New York with its surrounding counties, if
10 the plan were to increase the number of
11 districts that were linked, perhaps an
12 additional seat that would -- like part of the
13 city's northern suburban counties or a seat
14 that would link some of the outer boroughs
15 with the county of Nassau, would you be
16 concerned that that would dilute minority
17 voting opportunity to influence the outcome of
18 those elections?
19 MR. FLATEAU: No, I wouldn't.
20 You have, for example, in New York City
21 approximately 2.2 million persons of African
22 descent. 2.2 million Latinos. I believe
23 close to 900,000 people of Asian descent. So
24 people of color are in very large numbers in
25 this city.
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2 If you look at the incumbent
3 congressional districts now you have four
4 African-Americans and two Latino members of
5 congress. I suspect there may be a way of
6 getting at least third Latino district.
7 In the totality of these numbers I
8 don't think -- it can be done very well.
9 Someone mentioned in their opening remarks the
10 Voting Rights Act is still in force and you
11 are going to have a number of voting rights'
12 attorneys testifying here right now. I think
13 they will definitely insure that we are not
14 going to have so much retrogression in this
15 process, even if we do have to stretch out to
16 a northern suburb or to Long Island to hold on
17 to approximately 14 seats in New York City. I
18 don't think that's going to be a problem. I
19 don't think New York City is deserving of such
20 a fate.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You talked
22 about access to the data base. That's not
23 only the census data base but the political
24 data base?
25 MR. FLATEAU: Yes.
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2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is it your
3 view that you need access to that to
4 participate in this process fully?
5 MR. FLATEAU: One of the units of
6 geography the census bureau has created is
7 called a VTD -- I think they still call it
8 voter tabulation districts -- which is
9 specifically designed to aggregate election
10 district level data, political data and load
11 that in. So that you're looking at voting
12 patterns. I'm not a voting rights' attorney,
13 but there are concepts like racial block
14 voting where you look at an overlay of the
15 demographics and voting patterns within a unit
16 of geography. And you do certain kinds of
17 statistical analyses to determine whether or
18 not that's happening randomly or whether there
19 are some variables that drive that process.
20 So that kind of data is an
21 important component in the totality of
22 information that should be used in the
23 redistricting process.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just so know,
25 you mentioned fire walls, and at least from my
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2 point of view, all this information has been
3 assembled by people on the government
4 payroll. This has all been financed by
5 taxpayer dollars, whether it's the collection
6 of the census data or the political data or
7 the computer used in the drawing of maps.
8 This has all been paid for by some branch of
9 government.
10 And from my point of view, when you
11 acknowledge that it's been paid for with your
12 tax dollars, fire walls ought to be very few
13 and far between. I know we've had a
14 discussion and I know there was a suggestion
15 in my remarks in Manhattan and in my letter to
16 the commissioner talking about access to all
17 that data. You paid for it, people in this
18 room paid for it. There is no reason why you
19 can't have it from my point of view.
20 MR. FLATEAU: I vote with you,
21 Senator.
22 MR. HEDGE: If I could have one
23 follow-up.
24 You're absolutely right. This is a
25 process leading to an election. If you don't
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2 know how the people tend to vote it's very
3 hard to anticipate the electibility.
4 I have to ask you. I'm sure I know
5 your answer. Given your testimony, you would
6 not subscribe to those proposals given by the
7 League of Women Voters and Common Cause and
8 NYPIRG that we have a completely blind
9 political process where we are prohibited to
10 even include political data in the computer,
11 would you?
12 MR. FLATEAU: With all due
13 respect, I'm not familiar with their
14 position. But, I do believe incorporating
15 political data, electoral data is an integral
16 part of the process. You need both sets. You
17 need demographic data and you need political
18 data.
19 And, in fact, when you do your
20 justice department submissions and they do
21 their analyses they are looking for those two
22 kinds of data as well. So I think that's a
23 given.
24 I'm not familiar enough to go
25 against whatever the recommendations of those
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2 other three bodies.
3 MR. HEDGES: They testified at
4 the last two hearings that we should have a
5 process that is nonpartisan. That people
6 involved in politics should not be part of it
7 and no political data should be included in
8 consideration. And as I have stated it, would
9 you or would you not agree with that?
10 MR. FLATEAU: I would disagree
11 with that position.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: What you're
13 saying to us is that political data is
14 important in satisfying the Voting Rights
15 Act?
16 MR. FLATEAU: That's an important
17 part of what they look at. They look at
18 voting patterns of different racial and ethnic
19 groups and the impact of the redrawing of
20 those lines on those blocks of communities.
21 They will be looking for the data.
22 MR. HEDGES: One last follow-up,
23 and I want to preface it with an observation
24 so that everyone on the panel knows who John
25 is. John was a plaintiff in the 1982 Flateau
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2 versus Anderson litigation on voting rights.
3 He was a very constructive voice on the '97
4 congressional plan. He gave us good advice
5 about how to correct the violations that the
6 courts found in the court-ordered '92 plan.
7 Part of my question is, that Dean
8 and Chris were pursuing, is a specific
9 observation that the League of Women Voters
10 made that the process should not include
11 analysis of the effects of plans on
12 incumbents. Specifically they are incumbent
13 blind. Particularly by your voting rights
14 background, what's your thought on that?
15 MR. FLATEAU: It's more than a
16 thought, as I understand it, and my lawyers
17 will correct me, that incumbency protection is
18 considered a legitimate objective in the
19 redistricting process. And communities of
20 color have incumbents too and we are
21 interested in not winding up with less
22 incumbents at the end of this process. I
23 think incumbency is a legitimate factor in the
24 process.
25 SENATOR SKELOS: Assemblyman Nick
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2 Perry.
3 Fran Vella-Marrone.
4 MS. VELLA-MARRONE: Senator
5 Skelos, Assemblyman Parment and members of the
6 task force. I would like to thank you for
7 this opportunity to speak before you regarding
8 redistricting of state assembly districts and
9 its impact on the community I live in.
10 I come before you as the president
11 of the Dyker Heights Civic Association. Dyker
12 Heights Brooklyn is a community located in
13 between the neighborhoods of Bay Ridge and
14 Bensonhurst. It is a cohesive community with
15 a population of approximately 25,000 residents
16 made up primary of homeowners and is
17 homogeneous in nature.
18 Prior to 1983 Dyker Heights was
19 represented by two compact, contiguous and
20 convenient assembly districts in which Dyker
21 Heights was an integral part and both assembly
22 members lived within or near the boundaries of
23 the community.
24 Conversely, since 1983, Dyker
25 Heights has been split into three assembly
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2 districts with pieces of it attached as
3 appendages to other communities with very
4 different demographics, interests and
5 concerns. Only one of the three assembly
6 members representing Dyker Heights resides in
7 the community. However, this district is
8 primarily made up of Bensonhurst and Bath
9 Beach. The result is a lack of a single voice
10 speaking for the community as a whole and a
11 diminution of the community's political
12 clout.
13 We in Dyker Heights consider the
14 matter of redistricting a community issue with
15 major community impact. To this end, we want
16 Dyker Heights to be part of an assembly
17 district which is contiguous and keeps our
18 community intact. Thank you.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Do you know
20 the district numbers?
21 MS. VELLA-MARRONE: District
22 numbers are 48th, 46th, 49th.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Whose senate
24 district is it?
25 MS. VELLA-MARRONE: Senator
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2 Gentili.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is it entirely
4 within his district?
5 MS. VELLA-MARRONE: That's
6 correct.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would you like
8 to keep it completely within the senate
9 district as well?
10 MS. VELLA-MARRONE: Yes.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you
12 define the boundaries of your community?
13 MS. VELLA-MARRONE: You could say
14 it's from Seventh Avenue to 14th Avenue from
15 65th to 86th Street, approximately.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Who is your state
17 councilperson?
18 MS. VELLA-MARRONE: Councilman
19 Goldman.
20 Can I ask a question?
21 SENATOR SKELOS: You're supposed
22 to speak to us and we're supposed to give you
23 information. Go ahead.
24 MS. VELLA-MARRONE: We would like
25 to know if we could participate in the drawing
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2 of a district that would keep Dyker Heights
3 intact, and we wanted to know if it's possible
4 to obtain data in order to do that? Some kind
5 of program you had that we could use in order
6 to give our own submission. Is that
7 possible?
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Right now we are
9 going to meet as a task force in the next
10 several weeks to make a determination as to
11 what will be made available to the public. As
12 I mentioned earlier, in the last redistricting
13 we did accept single member districts drawn
14 for consideration by the task force.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think the
16 short answer is make sure we get your e-mail
17 address so that we can find you. Once we make
18 a determination on the information available
19 we'll get back to you.
20 MS. LEVINE: If I could add to
21 that. I would suggest you call the task force
22 in about two weeks and ask to talk to one of
23 the executive directors and we will be happy
24 to do that.
25 MS. VELLA-MARRONE: Thank you.
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2 SENATOR SKELOS: Chris Strunk.
3 MR. STRUNK: Good morning. Good
4 to see you again. I'm practicing on you folks
5 to go before a three judge panel on this very
6 issue, and I'm the canary in the cage so to
7 speak, because I know you folks haven't had a
8 backbone to do what's necessary for some
9 time. I don't think there is a body of law
10 which at this point -- the fruit is ripe and
11 it's rotting on the ground. We've lost our 45
12 seats. We are entitled to our 45 seats. I
13 will be pursuing that in June before a three
14 judge panel in the eastern district.
15 This is practice. I'm not an
16 attorney. I'm trying to reduce down my
17 presentation so that I can be succinct and
18 effective.
19 I'm a registered nonenrolled
20 eligible voter within the New York 10th
21 Congressional District. Used to be 11 before
22 Solarz got booted out because of his support
23 for the Gulf War, and we ended up with that
24 and a lot of other craziness. Including the
25 crescent of the 12th, of the 10th and Owens'
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2 11th on the inside of that and then Faso's
3 13th going into Staten Island. And then the
4 9th below it. And of course, Maloney's 14th
5 above that in straddling three counties.
6 My assembly district is 55. There
7 are 13 assembly districts that overlap that
8 congressional district. So you try to sort
9 that one out when you want to get something
10 done. But nonetheless, there are 13 assembly
11 districts.
12 Yesterday I testified before the
13 task force in New York County having there
14 presented prima facie evidence of invidious
15 economic discrimination against eligible
16 voters of the 6th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 15th,
17 16th, 17th CDs with the result of the 1990
18 census as shown by the chart herewith attached
19 the second page. I'm trying to bring this
20 down to as brief as possible.
21 I'm here to give notice of
22 corruption, greed, political takings of real
23 property caused by legislative CD
24 gerrymandering within the role of federal
25 subsidy used by Housing and Urban Development
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2 New York City Department of Housing,
3 Preservation Development, New York State
4 Division of Housing and Community Renewal, the
5 Enterprise Foundation, Goldman Sachs
6 Corporation and others who together deprive
7 eligible voters and other individuals in
8 minority communities within such CDs of their
9 right to economic freedom and equal protection
10 of law.
11 I fight to prevent furtherance of
12 such crime, and I consider it a crime, again,
13 by such crime to be perpetrated again by the
14 New York State Legislature, which wraps itself
15 in the Voting Rights Act as if it were a
16 constitutional amendment. And in conjunction
17 with the executive and the state Democratic
18 and Republican committees.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: You feel we
20 should disregard the Voting Rights Act?
21 MR. STRUNK: Absolutely not. But
22 the point is fairness -- if you look at
23 Shareno, you look at the series of court
24 decisions and you view it in terms of
25 Carchadagger in New Jersey and the
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2 embarrassment by the Republicans and Democrats
3 in the redrawing of Newark you understand what
4 that represents about voting data.
5 So the point is you look at the
6 body of law and based upon the rightness of
7 the issue, I look at Powell and term limits as
8 the basis to look at the constitution in its
9 relationship to states' 10th amendment rights
10 around assembly districts and the relationship
11 of the growth of assembly districts to the
12 qualifications of congressional districts.
13 May I continue?
14 I'm stating that together the
15 forces of the legislature, the executive and
16 the state committees are public tools of the
17 legislature. Act in conspiracy by slothful
18 habit basically with the federal executive and
19 imperious US House of Representatives using
20 the 2000 census of to deny New York eligible
21 voters to equal representation by
22 disproportionate diluted diminishment, which
23 are the three Ds, without just cause.
24 Now, like blockbusting of the Jim
25 Crow years, I charge that the federal
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2 government with its agent, New York
3 legislature, whether they know it or not, and
4 some of you do, some of you don't, I know
5 there are professors on the panel, that
6 legislature surrogates have under color of
7 law, committed CD busting very much the same
8 way we knew blockbusting. And using the
9 arbitrary tool gerrymandering capriciously
10 deprived eligible voters of the aforementioned
11 segregated minority CDs of equal protection of
12 the law as defined under 42 USC 1982, 1985 (3)
13 and 1986.
14 And that the New York legislature,
15 Executive and Democratic, Republican
16 committees or surrogates conspire with special
17 interests of the real estate, mortgage and
18 securities industries deny due process for
19 interloper taking of real property in
20 segregated minority CDs. In this regard I
21 think that the state bill S773 has potential,
22 if improvements are made to the proposed rule
23 changes to sections 4 and 5 of article 3 of
24 the New York State constitution with new
25 section 5-b. That I don't think we have time
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2 to discuss here.
3 Legislators complicity to
4 gerrymander minority CDs with less eligible
5 voters, I emphasis that, eligible voters are a
6 class separate than those who are not eligible
7 to vote. Two classes of people that we draw
8 CDs for. People who are eligible to vote and
9 those who are not eligible to vote. And I'm
10 not talking about qualified voters.
11 The legislators complicity into
12 gerrymander minority-majority CDs with less
13 eligible voters than in the majority Caucasian
14 CDs without exception is the root of evil
15 claimed here. I contend that less eligible
16 voters per CD translates to less total mean
17 income per CD because those ineligible to
18 vote, i.e., minors under 18, aliens, prisoners
19 and those in the custody of the state have an
20 either appreciably less or no income in
21 relationship to eligible voter citizens.
22 Therefore, that translates to distressed
23 property in queue for federal subsidy on the
24 merits of each application on a CD by CD
25 basis, whether it is real property in Montana,
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2 Ohio or Bedford Stuyvesant, where I live.
3 The more distressed property in a
4 CD the longer the delay for subsidy and
5 therefore creating the condition for
6 interloper acquisition. I use that as a
7 technical term, not as an Al Sharpton term.
8 The acquisition in the communities
9 with less total mean income by legislative
10 design is the result.
11 Let me give the task force a
12 concrete example and draw this to the five
13 minutes I've probably gone over, but this is
14 an important subject. Nobody else is going to
15 talk about this. I have lived this since
16 1985. I've lived this since the Vietnam War.
17 Let me give the task force a concrete example
18 with use of the annex table for a hypothetical
19 statewide mean income of say 25,000 per
20 eligible voter.
21 The minority 10th CD district has
22 343,165 eligible voters as of the 1990
23 census. Multiple that by 25,000 it comes out
24 to 8.5 billion dollars of disposable mean
25 total income a year for that CD.
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2 Now I compare that to Maloney's
3 district, the Caucasian district, which is the
4 largest Caucasian district of eligible
5 voters. The 14th CD with 444,097 eligible
6 voters at 25K and that gives 11 billion
7 dollars disposable mean total income. And
8 that the advantage is given to the Caucasian
9 district in the tune of 100,000 additional
10 eligible voters and 2.5 additional billion
11 that is available within the community to act
12 in conjunction with community to control its
13 own real estate.
14 The less money you have to control
15 your own real estate the more susceptible you
16 are to poaching, and I call it poaching.
17 I deplore such discriminatory
18 practice and fight to recover for eligible
19 voter rights to no less than 45 CDs, and you
20 won't hear that anywhere today, for New York
21 and I base that upon law, and the right for an
22 equal voice in the electoral college. I'm
23 sorry you have to go through this. It's a
24 game. The king has no clothes.
25 So, look, I fight for equal rights
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2 in the electoral college. You won't hear that
3 today, because it's all related. Article 1
4 flows into Article 2 flows into Article 3. If
5 Article 1 is corrupted everything else is
6 corrupted, and you know that better than I
7 do.
8 What I'm saying is, I demand due
9 process for any CDs that are to be eliminated
10 for just cause as required after the Civil War
11 under the 14th amendment section two. You
12 don't take away CDs unless it's just cause.
13 We should be at least treated the same way as
14 the changes that were brought about during
15 reconstruction in Virginia and Atlanta. The
16 1870s. We should at least receive that as
17 eligible voters.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Could you
19 summarize, because we have a lot of people and
20 you spoke yesterday and we want to get to
21 everyone.
22 MR. STRUNK: Let me say eligible
23 voters and every citizen of the state of
24 New York are entitled to a level economic
25 playing field to prevent any basis for unequal
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2 treatment under color of law, deprivation of
3 property economic rights protected under the
4 5th, 9th, 10th and especially 14th amendments
5 to congress by the several states.
6 Thank you very much.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Joseph Foy?
8 Councilman Golden.
9 David Ryan.
10 MR. RYAN: Ladies and gentlemen,
11 members of the committee, My name is David
12 Ryan. I am representing the Kings County
13 Conservative Party of which I am a district
14 leader of the 46th Assembly District. In
15 looking at the 1992 reapportionment, there are
16 three areas of major concern that the
17 Conservative Party would like to see addressed
18 by this committee during this process.
19 The first avenue of area concern
20 pertains to the neighborhoods of Marine Park,
21 Gerritsen Beach, Flatlands and Mill Basin. In
22 1982, and then again in 1992, these
23 communities were attached to three different
24 assembly districts, the 39th, 41st and the
25 45th. This was done in order to protect white
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2 democratic incumbents. This should not have
3 been done. More appropriately, these
4 neighborhoods, which represent very similar
5 communities of interest, should have been
6 linked into what would have become a compact
7 and contiguous district. A homogenous
8 district made up of citizens with similar
9 concerns, outlook and philosophy.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you give
11 us a street address for those of us who don't
12 live in New York.
13 MR. RYAN: Gerritsen Beach is the
14 Gerritsen area. That's a community right off
15 of Gerritsen. Look at the map of Sheepshead
16 Bay. Right off the Belt Parkway.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Go ahead.
18 MR. RYAN: Instead these
19 communities became the anchors for districts
20 that have significant black minority
21 populations. The Conservative Party urges the
22 committee to dismantle the existing districts
23 in order to create two new districts, one
24 being a black minority district, the other a
25 district that encompasses several nonminority
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2 communities that would very comfortably fit
3 together into one district. That's as opposed
4 to anchoring them.
5 The second area pertains to the
6 neighborhoods of Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights and
7 Bensonhurst. One of the worse examples in the
8 entire state of dividing a community of
9 interest occurred in 1982, and was repeated
10 again in 1992, when these neighbors were
11 carved into five different assembly districts,
12 the 46th, 48th, 49th, 51st and 52nd.
13 Prior to 1982 these neighborhoods
14 were represented by two assembly districts.
15 It is quite curious that while this community
16 can be represented by one congressman, one
17 state senator, one city councilman, one school
18 board and one community board that it somehow
19 needs to be represented by five different
20 assembly members.
21 Most community leaders believe that
22 the balkanization of these communities was
23 done for no other reason that to eliminate its
24 ability to elect its own representatives, and
25 regardless of party affiliation, many in the
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2 community believed that this was a blatant
3 attempt to end any hope of republican
4 conservative representation.
5 Logic would dictate that these
6 contiguous historically linked communities
7 that are filled with individuals with common
8 interests and concern be once again given the
9 ability to elect its own representatives in
10 the state assembly.
11 The Conservative Party believes
12 that districts should be comprised of
13 contiguous and compact territory. Four of the
14 five districts that represent these
15 neighborhoods cannot meet this definition. As
16 earlier stated, these communities share
17 similar geographic, political philosophy and
18 sense of neighborhood whose inhabitants work
19 to make the best community for themselves and
20 their families.
21 The last area of concern pertains
22 to the minority representation in Kings
23 County. The borough of Brooklyn is the
24 nation's best example of the melting pot. Its
25 2.4 million residents are comprised of nearly
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2 100 ethnic religious and racial groups
3 residing in dozens of communities. Many of
4 these communities are populated by minorities
5 and often described only in terms of race, but
6 are far more complex. We urge the committee
7 in creating minority districts to take into
8 consideration the numerous communities of
9 interests within the minority population, not
10 just the color of one's skin. We believe this
11 will result in fairer, more representative
12 minority majority districts.
13 One thing I would ask is, what is
14 being done to insure that the process of
15 redistricting is being done in a fair manner
16 for all concerned?
17 SENATOR SKELOS: We're having these
18 hearings.
19 MR. RYAN: I understand you're
20 having hearings, but let's be realistic. All
21 newspapers, all communities leaders agree that
22 the way these districts were gerrymandered has
23 got to end. What are we going to do to insure
24 that these districts are drawn fairly? That
25 we have contiguous districts? That we have
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2 homogeneous districts? That we have districts
3 comprised of communities of interest?
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Part of this
5 process is to get information.
6 MR. RYAN: I appreciate that and
7 respect that. What is being done to draw
8 these the way they should be drawn? The
9 newspapers have slammed this for years now.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This is a
11 process that requires 31 votes in the New York
12 State Senate and 76 votes in the state
13 assembly and the signature of the governor.
14 That is the way we do just about everything of
15 substance in this state. We do it through the
16 elected officials. My response to your
17 comment would be we have perhaps a different
18 opinion of people sitting at this table about
19 what information should be available so that
20 the community can be vigilante in watching
21 that the process is fair and evenhanded.
22 But I believe the shorthand answer
23 under the current constitution, and you heard
24 Assemblyman Ortloff talk about the proposals
25 of different ways to do it, but the way we are
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2 going to do this is the only way we can. We
3 either do it through the normal process of
4 government the same way we pass every law that
5 affects you. Or in the absence of our ability
6 to do that or if we violate the federal or
7 state constitution the courts may take that
8 power away from us.
9 The bottom line is the fairness in
10 the process is the fairness of those who are
11 sitting at this table and the 76 members of
12 the assembly coming together to back a plan
13 and 31 members of the senate to do the same.
14 MR. RYAN: The 46th AD is a
15 contiguous district?
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's a
17 judgement made by 76 members of the assembly.
18 If the courts tell us we didn't do it
19 correctly we have latitude. There has been
20 litigation about the latitude the legislators
21 have to draw these plans. We have been told
22 by the court there are certain things we can
23 and cannot do. I think the intention here is
24 that we understand this is a real process with
25 real people making real decisions and we
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2 intend to do everything we can.
3 MR. RYAN: At this time I charge
4 you with doing a better job.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I believe
6 the check is in the mail, I just made a
7 substantial contribution to the Conservative
8 Party. Would the Conservative Party use some
9 of that money to get the resources to draw up
10 a plan?
11 MR. RYAN: Sure. We are actively
12 involved in this and we want to see this as
13 fair for everyone.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: I would suggest
15 that when you ask us the question that in a
16 sense it's incumbent upon organizations which
17 have means to at least do as much as it can.
18 We have voters that have come before us and
19 they have indicated they don't want to do a
20 plan either. I would say to them and everyone
21 else, follow the example of John Flateau and
22 get the resources together, get some experts
23 together, submit a plan and let us know in
24 that way the opinions as well.
25 MR. RYAN: We most certainly
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2 will.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Chris Ragucci?
4 Bradley Stephens here?
5 MR. STEPHENS: Bradley Stephens,
6 Assemblymember John Faso's office.
7 I have a listing so I will speak
8 through it. What I have to say mirrors
9 closely what Ms. Vella-Marrone and Mr. Ryan
10 have said. I have chosen this particular
11 hearing to submit a statement because of what
12 I consider an usually egregious situation in
13 Brooklyn.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Can you
15 clarify? Is this your statement?
16 MR. STEPHENS: This is Assemblyman
17 Faso's.
18 The reapportionment that took place
19 first in 1982 and then again in 1992 in
20 southwest Brooklyn carved Bay Ridge into four
21 separate assembly districts and the adjourning
22 community of Dyker Heights into three separate
23 districts. Prior to 1982, two districts
24 represented these communities. This is
25 clearly in violation of what I would consider
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2 a basic standard of redistricting, that
3 communities be kept intact.
4 The purpose of creating these
5 districts was simply to take away the ability
6 of these two communities from playing a
7 significant role in electing a representative
8 from their respective communities. The end
9 result being oddly shaped districts that run
10 throughout Brooklyn attaching small pieces of
11 Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights to areas that have
12 historically been philosophically and
13 politically quite different in character from
14 Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights. These two
15 communities should have their own assembly
16 district.
17 The new census figures indicate
18 that there is sufficient population, and
19 centering a new district around Bay Ridge
20 certainly makes more sense from a geographic
21 and character of community standard than the
22 present districts.
23 It is ironic that, if the residents
24 of these neighborhoods were a protected group
25 under the Voting Rights Act, the court would
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2 clearly deem the existing boundaries to be
3 unconstitutional. It seems clear that the
4 fractionation of these neighborhoods and
5 communities has been done to satisfy the needs
6 of raw partisan politics rather than for the
7 public benefit.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Esmeralda
9 Simmons.
10 MS. SIMMONS: Good morning members
11 of the task force. My name is Esmeralda
12 Simmons I'm the executive director of the
13 Center for Law and Social Justice at Medgar
14 Evans College. The center is a civil rights
15 and human rights institution that works for
16 community organizations and community groups.
17 We have been deeply involved over the past 15
18 years during the existence of the Center in
19 voting rights issue in New York City, and we
20 do intend to be involved in this round of
21 congressional senate and assembly
22 redistricting in New York State.
23 We have a series of recommendations
24 that I will go into and be happy to answer any
25 questions.
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2 We ask the task force to recognize
3 and utilize the principles that have been
4 uttered in the most recent supreme court
5 case. I'm sure you've heard of it, Cromartie
6 versus Hunt. In that case the principle that
7 we are basically asking you to recognize is
8 that the race of voters can be a legitimate
9 political element for drawing state and
10 congressional districts. We only make that
11 statement because of the general perception
12 that was out there before because of the Shore
13 case and its progeny.
14 We also ask you to -- moving to a
15 completely different direction -- to provide
16 public access and free distribution of all
17 data, including VDTs, including political
18 election data, which we consider to be
19 extremely significant and not easy to obtain
20 unless you hire an expert, and allow this data
21 to be used and obtained by anyone who requests
22 it.
23 We ask you to establish something
24 that has been done, it has precedent in New
25 York City by the former districting
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2 commission, and that is to establish public
3 access terminals. In other words, within some
4 state agencies or some designated spot to have
5 computer terminals that are already loaded
6 with the data and the equipment being used
7 similar to which you will be using and your
8 fine staff. So that the public need not go
9 out and purchase what they have already
10 purchased by their tax dollars.
11 We ask you to do something that's
12 innovative that was done by the census bureau
13 during the census 2000, and that is to hire
14 and employ public information specialists that
15 will assist those community individuals and
16 groups similar to folks you have heard here
17 today and you've recommended to draw maps to
18 assist them in the process and in utilizing
19 the data that will be made available,
20 hopefully, by your task force.
21 Moving back to redistricting
22 directly. We urge you to remember, and I'm
23 saying this for the record, I'm sure it's very
24 high in your memory at this point, we urge you
25 to remember that there are three counties in
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2 New York City that are covered by Section Five
3 of the Voting Rights that will require
4 preclearance, and therefore any map that is
5 drawn of New York State and obviously of New
6 York City must be precleared by the Justice
7 Department voting rights section.
8 We are very, very disturbed that
9 unlike the last two decades that this fine
10 body does not have a representative member of
11 color sitting, making decisions and inputting
12 on how the state congressional assembly and
13 senate districts will be determined. Or at
14 least recommended. So we urge that people of
15 color be added to this body as official
16 members of the task force.
17 We also are concerned that at this
18 late date, and we do consider it a late date,
19 that it is still unclear what the size of the
20 state senate will be, how many districts will
21 be in the state senate and what the size of
22 those districts will be.
23 Those of us working in this area
24 would like to move this along, because we all
25 know in less than a year we will be talking
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2 about specific districts, changes, and it's
3 best that we know as soon as possible and that
4 public knowledge of it be made available.
5 We also urge that you put in to
6 writing and make available, not only in hard
7 copy but also online, the criteria that was
8 used in determining the size and the number of
9 the senate districts. So if anyone proceeds
10 to challenge that, they have the criteria and
11 are knowledgeable of it and will not have to
12 go to any Freedom of Information Act request.
13 We also have recommended some
14 specific issues that have to do with the
15 census and with the undercount. I know that
16 was already discussed here today.
17 One thing we are recommending that
18 if in fact you are going to use nonuniformed
19 size but use a deviation in the size of the
20 districts, that you assign New York City
21 smaller population districts because of the
22 undercount that we allege occurred in New York
23 City. Particularly in districts of Latin and
24 Latino residents. And I might add Asian
25 residents because of the high immigrant
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2 population of those persons.
3 Districts seats, including
4 congressional seats, should follow the
5 population. New York City should not be
6 losing a congressional seat. We consider that
7 to be retrogression, or you may call that a
8 diminution, in terms of the voting rights
9 strength of minority people in New York City.
10 But since New York City has not lost
11 population, we see no justification, other
12 than political, to reduce the number of seats,
13 congressional seats that will be representing
14 New York City.
15 Finally, we are asking your task
16 force, as a demographic agency of New York
17 State, to recommend that New York State urges
18 the United States Office of Management and
19 Budget and the census bureau to do two
20 things.
21 First, we are asking that you urge
22 them to issue adjusted data and to give total
23 justification about how that adjustment was
24 done and whether or not it was being done on
25 the basis of alleged undercount.
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2 Secondly, we urge you to ask OMB to
3 repeal its first time use of 16 racial
4 multiple race categories. Because in the
5 biannual census, as well as in the American
6 community surveys, that they will be using or
7 practically once every three years in terms of
8 getting data for the country.
9 The enforcement of the civil rights
10 law, including the Voting Rights Act, is going
11 to be made increasingly difficult because of
12 the effect of the racial categorization that
13 was in the long form and the short form of the
14 census data.
15 So we are urging that that question
16 that you recommend, that that question be
17 returned to its former status, and that they
18 instead add ethnic data questions to the short
19 form, as well as the long form, because that
20 will give information that will aid us in
21 doing redistricting and demographic work in
22 New York State.
23 Thank you very much you.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just want to
25 make sure I understand the comment with
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2 respect to the deviation question. As I
3 understand it, you're suggesting that since we
4 have five percent deviation on either side,
5 maybe it's five percent smaller than the
6 median, maybe five percent larger, I
7 understand your recommendation would be in
8 those districts which have historically grown
9 very quickly experienced, which have
10 experienced large numbers of increased
11 population, whether be it senate or assembly
12 districts, your suggestion is in those areas
13 that have experienced high population growth
14 we should set the deviation at the lower end
15 to accommodate the fact that these are
16 districts that have traditionally growing
17 populations and therefore by relatively early
18 on, forgetting for a second the undercount
19 question, but relatively early on in the
20 decade those districts will have continued to
21 grow and will be of mean size or bigger?
22 MS. SIMMONS: That's generally my
23 suggestion. I incorporate your language as
24 well.
25 I did speak directly regarding an
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2 alleged undercount. But, if you have
3 determined that you will be using a ten
4 percent, because that is a decision that you
5 can make, we urge that the lesser deviation,
6 the minus deviation, be applied to New York
7 City districts that have traditionally shown a
8 major increase in population. Because that is
9 where we think there are people that were not
10 counted in the census, and that could
11 ameliorate the effect.
12 In addition, those are the areas
13 that will grow very shortly within this
14 decade.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just want
16 to clarify. Is your recommendation to do that
17 based on an assumption of an undercount in
18 those districts or is it based on an
19 assumption that those are the districts
20 fastest growing?
21 MS. SIMMONS: Both.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Final
23 question. The question of the adjusted data.
24 It's my recollection we don't necessarily have
25 to use the federal census data. I think we
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2 can perform our own census or look for the
3 best available data.
4 MS. SIMMONS: There is a problem
5 with that because the courts have generally
6 agreed.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My question
8 is, is it your recommendation that we should
9 go get that adjusted data from the census
10 department?
11 MS. SIMMONS: If and when it
12 exists, as of right now it doesn't exist, they
13 have not done an adjustment, if in fact they
14 do do an adjustment, I strongly suggest you
15 obtain that data and that New York State uses
16 it. It will in fact take into account any
17 undercount that may have occurred in New York
18 State. Including New York City obviously.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In your
20 judgement, is the failure to use that data
21 create a voting rights or other problems?
22 MS. SIMMONS: On the legal issue
23 I do not think that I can say that honestly
24 that it will create a problem, because the
25 court recognizes any official census data as
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2 the proper data. If there is adjusted data
3 that comes out -- I'm talking about the
4 federal courts -- if there is adjusted data
5 that comes out of the census bureau that will
6 be accorded the same strength as any other
7 official census data. So we are urging you to
8 use that if in fact that comes out.
9 You can justify any use of other
10 data that you can come across or that you can
11 create, but you will have to make an offering
12 before the court about the validity of such
13 data. Census data is presumed to be valid.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT:
15 Hypothetically, if we set the number for seats
16 in New York City at the lower end of the
17 permissible range that would imply to some
18 extent that the seats in the state assembly
19 would have to be at the upper end of the range
20 outside the City of New York.
21 Because of the common order rules
22 of the state constitution, it would be my
23 feeling that this would create some problems
24 for upstate city districts in the way that
25 protected minorities had the opportunity to
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2 influence the outcome of elections in those
3 cities. You do not see that as a problem for
4 this task force?
5 MS. SIMMONS: It may create
6 somewhat of a problem but it doesn't have the
7 same weight as the New York City districts do
8 because there are no covered districts outside
9 of Bronx, Manhattan and Kings.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: It all comes
11 from section --
12 MS. SIMMONS: I understand that,
13 but it's not the same weight.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: We do have
15 members of the state legislature who are
16 individuals who come from districts that are
17 comprised of people who are protected
18 minorities under the Voting Rights Act. And I
19 guess what I'm imposing to you is, should we
20 ignore their plight to concentrate our concern
21 on the plight of those in the city of New
22 York?
23 MS. SIMMONS: I don't think you
24 would have to ignore their plight, first of
25 all. Just because the district is larger does
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2 not mean that a community in, let's say,
3 Rochester, Syracuse or any other area that is
4 highly populated by people of color would
5 necessarily mean that they would not be able
6 to elect the candidate of their choice.
7 So, basically the presumption I'm
8 making is that there has been high population
9 growth in New York City that has not been
10 reflected in other parts of the state, and
11 even where those areas have high, quote,
12 minority or people of color population. So I
13 don't think you are necessarily in a Catch-22
14 situation.
15 If in fact there has been a high
16 population in other areas where there are
17 people of color, then those districts should
18 in fact reflect a pattern, and I'm using the
19 same criteria that they use for other
20 districts, that would allow those voters the
21 opportunity to elect a candidate of their
22 choice. It needn't be the same size as the
23 districts in New York City to maintain that
24 criteria.
25 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: If we start
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2 with the state assembly, more than 60 seats in
3 the state assembly that would wind up in the
4 City of New York, there are 61, the
5 presumption is that there would be the
6 opportunity for more seats because of the
7 relative growth of the population of the city
8 of New York. If we made them all small, that
9 would mean the ones upstate would all have to
10 be large. If the ones upstate are large,
11 wouldn't that necessarily be a dilution of the
12 vote who are in Buffalo, Rochester?
13 MS. SIMMONS: The answer, sir, is
14 not necessarily, because it depends on the
15 population. This is a population-driven
16 process. You are presuming the population has
17 remained steady in those areas. I'm not
18 making that presumption.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: In fact, if
20 you were to look at the undercount I suspect
21 that the undercount in Buffalo is much greater
22 than in the City of New York. I can't prove
23 that, but my suspicion is that's the case, and
24 I think that's probably the case in the city
25 of Rochester as well.
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2 MS. SIMMONS: That can be taken
3 into account by this task force. Large
4 districts upstate it's going to make it more
5 difficult for minority members from those
6 communities to be represented.
7 I'm saying again, it depends on the
8 exact numbers. I'm very familiar with
9 Rochester and Buffalo. I happen to think
10 they're wonderful parts of this state. And I
11 would like to see people of color elect
12 candidates of their choice from those two
13 great cities. But I do not think that by
14 going toward the lower end of the deviation in
15 New York City you will necessarily have to
16 diminish the rights of those voters.
17 You can take whatever facts you
18 think are important, including any alleged
19 undercount into consideration and still
20 maintain adequate representation of those
21 voters. But I'm glad that you show such
22 concern for them.
23 MR. HEDGES: You mentioned the
24 four categories that are in the census that we
25 are going to be forced to use. How would you
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2 suggest that we treat the multiracial choice?
3 The Office of Management and Budget has
4 recommended that, for example, someone who
5 checked white and African-American would be
6 treated as African-American. Would you agree
7 with that?
8 MS. SIMMONS: I agree with that,
9 but I'm just letting you know that's why I
10 suggest that you make this public
11 recommendation about the problems this has
12 caused to OMB and the federal government. I'm
13 going along with what the justice department
14 has suggested. But it is a can of worms. I'm
15 admitting that.
16 In short, I'm sure you're all
17 familiar with it, they say that if a person
18 checked multiple categories and checked any
19 categories that were among protected classes,
20 Latino, African-American or black, Asian, and
21 in some other states, as far as I know, there
22 is not as yet a native American voting rights
23 issue in New York State, they are saying if a
24 person checks any one of those categories that
25 that person should be counted for any
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2 categories that are among the traditional
3 minority categories.
4 The problem that I'm seeing is if
5 somebody checked more than one, how is this
6 task force going to count that person? It
7 obliges you to double count. It will skew the
8 figures. There are ways of handling it, but
9 it makes life a lot more difficult for all of
10 us.
11 We are working in coalition with
12 other voting rights advocates of color and we
13 all see this as a major issue. We have no
14 problem counting anyone that doubled or
15 tripled or quadrupally considered themselves a
16 person of color under the racial category or
17 the culturally ethnic category Hispanic. But
18 it will cause some difficulty in argument.
19 The voting rights division has not
20 yet ruled on how they are going to be counting
21 people in terms of their review. That's a
22 special significance to us in New York City.
23 MR. HEDGES: Will you be
24 submitting plans?
25 MS. SIMMONS: Yes, sir. We will
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2 be submitting plans along with other
3 organizations. When I say we, the name of the
4 Center for Law and Social Justice will be
5 attached to certain plans because we will be
6 representing certain coalitions. So we will
7 be working with groups in submitting plans. I
8 do not see us at this point drawing plans
9 independent of community organizations. We
10 are not going to draw plans on our own. We
11 will be advising them and counseling them and
12 we will put our name on certain plans.
13 Definitely we will be submitting
14 something for congress, for assembly and
15 senate for your review.
16 I hope we don't have to see each
17 other in court. I hope this time we can get
18 it done in the legislature and not have to
19 burden the federal courts with this issue.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: You may
21 have heard the question before but I'll
22 preface it anyway.
23 You raised an interesting point
24 with the recent Supreme Court decisions
25 leaving us with a very clear necessity to
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2 establish a political component in drawing
3 these districts.
4 Given that, if you could address
5 yourself to the rather widespread advice of
6 New York Public Interest Research Group,
7 Common Cause and the League of Women Voters
8 that we should not include political data as
9 part of this consideration. Would you comment
10 on that. And if you agree or disagree let us
11 know.
12 MS. SIMMONS: I think there are
13 two issues. I will break it into two issues.
14 I will address first the ground reality
15 issue.
16 As New York State presently
17 redistricts, I do not see that it is wise for
18 your task force to ignore and not use
19 political data. And by political data I'm
20 talking about election returns, past election
21 returns. I'm talking about the way racial
22 block voting that goes to different political
23 parties and racial block voting that goes to
24 incumbencies, since that is also a recognized
25 consideration under the Shore case.
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2 I also say that in the past it has
3 been impossible to justify decisions in
4 redistricting without the use of such data,
5 and that experts that we have hired have used
6 this data to in fact support and/or object to
7 plans that have been submitted. We intend to
8 use the data. We also would like to know what
9 data you are using to make it a completely
10 open process. We might be able to avoid some
11 litigation if we were able to see what you
12 were using and you saw what we are using. I
13 think it is extremely important.
14 Now, on a theoretical point. If in
15 fact throughout the United States there is a
16 push for electoral reform that includes
17 completely nonpartisan redistricting, and that
18 there is absolutely no consideration of any
19 political data in redistricting, then the
20 NYPIRG and the League of Women Voters'
21 suggestion makes a lot of sense.
22 Unfortunately that is not the
23 present situation. We cannot take that into
24 account with the scheme we have in New York
25 State, particularly since the Supreme Court
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2 has recognized the validity of the use of such
3 data and such consideration.
4 If the entire country goes towards
5 election reform that includes redistricting
6 and nonpartisan redistricting, having
7 redistricting done by complete experts that
8 only look at the considerations of the voters
9 and not of the parties, then their suggestions
10 make absolute sense. We are not there. I'm
11 dealing with the reality and where we are
12 now. And I'm telling you we will need to know
13 the data you are using, the political data you
14 are using and you will certainly know what we
15 are using.
16 MR. HEDGES: To accomplish that
17 would that mean also eliminating the Voting
18 Rights Act?
19 MS. SIMMONS: They will have to
20 meet that when it happens. I don't know how
21 this will occur. I can understand the larger
22 scheme theory of it. But they will have to --
23 when I say they -- people who are imagining a
24 nonpartisan districting solution to the ills
25 of this country's districting problem will
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2 also have to take into effect that of the,
3 quote, minority voters that are protected by
4 the Voting Rights Act. And thus far their
5 designs have not discussed that. I'm sure
6 they are considering it and we will see
7 something in the future.
8 MR. HEDGES: Do you think if that
9 was accomplished today in New York State with
10 the Voting Rights Act that the Voting Rights
11 Act would be violated?
12 MS. SIMMONS: Not necessarily,
13 no.
14 MR. HEDGES: Not using any
15 political data at all.
16 MS. SIMMONS: If all politics,
17 incumbency data was eliminated and they just
18 went on other considerations it could be
19 done. But this is all hypothetical. And
20 again, we haven't seen a single iota of a
21 scheme of how it could be accomplished in real
22 life. Until I see that and until I can
23 actually comment on it, I think this is best
24 left as a hypothetical.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You talked
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2 about experts that you might retain or use for
3 the redistricting process. You need the data
4 and we've got to, in essence, arm those
5 experts with all the information necessary.
6 MS. SIMMONS: Or we have to
7 create it ourselves.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It would be
9 much easier and certainly facilitate the
10 process if we've got it and we give it to
11 you. It makes that process enormously less
12 expensive and opens the access to more
13 community groups of the nature that you
14 describe.
15 MS. SIMMONS: Absolutely, sir.
16 The cost of experts is phenomenal. And
17 obviously, if one group has an expert then the
18 other group has to get an expert. And making
19 the data available that you have that has been
20 developed by an expert for the state would
21 make the process for all groups in New York
22 State much more accessible and easier. And
23 they could actually be apples to apples
24 instead of apples to oranges when we're
25 talking about what the situation is.
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2 I will add one thing. That doesn't
3 mean if it gets to litigation that different
4 experts will not be retained. When it gets to
5 that you have to present your own. You simply
6 can't, generally, rely on someone else's
7 unless they let you. Unless they actually
8 stipulate to your use of their data.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One final
10 question that might be even more pertinent,
11 access to expert reports and information in
12 communities that are traditionally new
13 immigrant communities that do not have the
14 wealth and means to afford experts and put
15 reports together. In many areas where poverty
16 alone is a factor and part of the whole notion
17 of protecting people who have very significant
18 needs one of the aspects of that would be to
19 get expert data to them and their advocates so
20 as to reduce the costs to challenge and/or
21 protect their voting rights.
22 MS. SIMMONS: That's absolutely
23 true, sir. It's a major issue. Thank you
24 very much and good luck to you.
25 By the way, are you using a new
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2 acronym? You're still using LATFOR.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Lucia Gomez.
4 Rabbi Edgar Gluck.
5 MR. GLUCK: Good morning honorable
6 members of the committee. I would just like
7 to introduce myself, but I am speaking as an
8 individual. I'm chairman of the In Patient
9 Board of Maimomides Hospital. I'm consultant
10 to the Jewish Affairs Methodist Hospital and
11 the commissioner for the United States
12 Commission for the Preservation of American
13 Heritage Abroad. And I'm chaplain for the
14 Port Authority police. Again, I am not
15 speaking in the name of these agencies.
16 That's just for identification purposes.
17 When we go into certain ethnic
18 areas, and I heard the words mentioned before
19 several times, there is certain ethnic
20 sensitivities that should be considered when
21 lines are drawn. Take, for example, the 8th
22 district in Brooklyn which is currently
23 represented by Congressman Nadler, who has
24 worked with the Hasidic community, which is
25 growing in leaps and bounds, in the Borough
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2 Park area of Brooklyn.
3 And the sensitivity that has to be
4 inculcated into a congressman, especially if a
5 new congressman comes in, is very hard because
6 there are so many special needs. Holocaust
7 victims, survivors of the Holocaust victims
8 and many of the problems that they face in our
9 wonderful country.
10 The congressman that's there now
11 has worked on filing suits in federal courts
12 against Nazi war criminals to have them
13 expelled from the United States and has worked
14 on many of the problems of anti-Semitism
15 behind the Iron Curtain, which is now coming
16 back up again in Russia and certain areas in
17 Russia.
18 I have been there several times,
19 and again, I hope I'm allowed to cross party
20 lines, and I would like to also say the same
21 is true of Congressman Benjamin Gilman in the
22 Rockland-Orange -- small part of Westchester
23 and small part of Sullivan area -- who is
24 very, very -- was the chairman of the
25 International Election Committee and is
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2 currently the chairman emeritus and also a
3 subchairman of criminal justice.
4 We have worked together with both
5 Congressman Nadler and Congressman Gilman on
6 the protection of churches, cemeteries for all
7 races in Eastern Europe, synagogues and places
8 that have been literally ripped apart by a
9 government. We just returned from Prague
10 where we had a tenth of a large Jewish
11 cemetery that's 910 years old ripped out
12 because it was sold to an insurance company.
13 The insurance company just told us
14 we bought this property, the bones are your
15 headache.
16 There are many things that
17 congressmen have to have in mind when we are
18 talking about specific groups. I'm basically
19 talking about the Orthodox and Hasidic groups
20 that I have a very close affiliation with and
21 work with on a constant basis. And I would
22 like to ask you that in certain areas if you
23 can keep that in mind and see that we work
24 with the reapportionment on some of the
25 sensitive issues that many of these
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2 congressmen happen to be experts on.
3 Thank you very much.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Can you tell
5 us where the Brooklyn community is.
6 MR. GLUCK: Borough Park, it's the
7 48th and 49th district. And the AD, the area
8 is I would say from 40th Street to 65th
9 Street, from 8th avenue to 20th or 21st
10 Avenue.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would you
12 describe it as that bulge in central Brooklyn
13 that's in Congressman's Nadler's district?
14 MR. GLUCK: That's it. And the
15 other district that I'm talking about is the
16 20th congressional, which is Rockland, Orange,
17 Sullivan county.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one
19 question. You can look at Congressman
20 Nadler's map, which includes most of the west
21 side, and you can make an argument that there
22 are lots of communities in the upper west
23 side, and then you come into central Brooklyn
24 and run into what is a different community, I
25 think you have acknowledged, given its
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2 religious composition.
3 As I understand your testimony,
4 which in essence you're saying is, if you get
5 a good congressman who comes to know his
6 community and does a strong job of advocating
7 for it he can represent many different, unique
8 communities and still do a good job
9 representing all of them.
10 MR. GLUCK: Yes, but if you have a
11 congressman that is doing it, as they say, if
12 it ain't broke don't fix it. What I'm saying
13 is, if you have a congressman that has the
14 community at heart and is working with them
15 for so many years, 16 years in the assembly
16 and eight and a half years in congress, it's
17 easier than getting a new congressman and
18 retraining him and going into a whole new
19 direction.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I get the
21 point. But the point I'm trying to make, and
22 Senator Skelos made at the start, is that we
23 are not here to necessarily endorse any
24 particular candidate for any particular
25 community, but what communities should be
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2 linked together because of their bonds and
3 interest. And I certainly see your comment
4 reflecting there are special religious
5 communities that should be linked together.
6 And I certainly hear you saying that, to the
7 extent, is that the neighborhoods you
8 described, that we should keep it in the same
9 senate district or a single senate district
10 and a single assembly district and then a
11 single congressional district.
12 MR. GLUCK: Exactly. Thank you
13 very much.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Larry Morrish.
15 MR. MORRISH: Thank you for
16 holding these meetings. I'm just representing
17 myself. I'm a lifelong president of Bay Ridge
18 and Dyker Heights. I have been a delegate to
19 the various community counsels since 1963. I
20 cofounded the Volunteer Airmen's Corp. I was
21 the successful chairman of the Meals on Wheels
22 for seniors. I'm a military liaison with the
23 military base in the community. I just love
24 my community and believe we should be
25 involved.
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2 I've also been a part of the 1982
3 redistricting when our community lost our
4 assembly seat, in my opinion, due to pork
5 barrel politics. That involved everybody.
6 1982, maybe Senator Skelos was around, I don't
7 know. But Senator Skelos has always been good
8 to our community with the seniors. And I'm
9 happy to see you come down many times.
10 Same thing happened in 1992 to us.
11 So we all know the facts. It's already been
12 stated. They stole our assembly seat. We do
13 not have a representation in the assembly
14 within our community. We have been fortunate
15 by those who do touch our borders to be well
16 served. We are very happy with Joe Gilman and
17 Adele Cohen. The ones who touch us are
18 responsive to our community. They have been
19 very gracious and very professional. The
20 difference is we can't hold them accountable.
21 If they are not going to bat for us in the
22 assembly we don't have a voice to remove
23 them. We only touch them. We have no say on
24 what's going on.
25 Now, recently, we have had a large
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2 influx, a very large influx of Moslems, Asians
3 and Russians all coming in. We have formed
4 the unity task force between our religious
5 leaders, ethnic and racial. We are all quite
6 content. Everybody has the same goals for the
7 quality of life within our communities that we
8 do serve.
9 Things have changed. So when you
10 are back to pork barrel politics just remember
11 one thing. Our community no longer votes for
12 somebody because you are a democratic,
13 republic, liberal, conservative, independent
14 or whatever else they are coming up with. We
15 vote for the person who cares for our
16 community and is there for the right reasons
17 and representation. And that's the case. I
18 say that openly to everybody.
19 I really compliment you for coming
20 down here to give us this opportunity. You
21 have a tremendous burden on you to handle it
22 with everything else. At least the state is
23 getting back in shape. We are all New Yorkers
24 and we agree about that. Just give us our
25 seat back in the assembly.
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2 Thank you very much for your time.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Let me ask
4 you a question. I think I know the answer but
5 I'm not sure. Is the aggregate population of
6 the community sufficient to be an assembly
7 district?
8 MR. MORRISH: Yes, it is.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: About how
10 many people would you say is the outer limits
11 of the community population?
12 MR. MORRISH: Population of
13 Planning Board 10 with the new census in
14 itself is about 130, 140,000.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: It's not
16 only sufficient it's within the five percent,
17 the addition of 126, five ten.
18 MR. MORRISH: My entire life I
19 have dabbled in everything. In order to get
20 things done you have to know the city, state
21 and federal government. I would say I'm quite
22 knowledgeable on everybody and every elected
23 official and what everybody's purpose is, and
24 I really relish that.
25 That is the case. Everybody who is
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2 in office up there has your own situation,
3 recognizes this situation and everybody could
4 agree that it is the best candidate.
5 There's one thing about our
6 community. We don't call our elected
7 officials politicians. We call them public
8 servants because they have to kowtow and do
9 the job. And they do do the job. Anytime
10 Senator Skelos wants to come down and talk to
11 my seniors again I will buy him lunch.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: You don't have a
13 lobbyist I hope.
14 MR. MORRISH: I'm not a lobbyist.
15 We are small town USA, and that's the way we
16 like it.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I missed the
18 name of the community.
19 MR. MORRISH: Our community is
20 Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights. I don't know if
21 it was the old 52. Whatever it was. The last
22 time we were represented the way we should
23 have been represented Florence Sullivan was in
24 the seat. Whatever that is.
25 Again, let me state to all of the
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2 ones that do touch us. They are very nice
3 people. They did a very nice job. We just
4 want to hold them to the task of our needs.
5 We want to be able to say we can remove you,
6 we don't like what you are doing. We can't do
7 that right now and it's not fair.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: What you're
9 saying is, if you were a small community of
10 10,000 or 15,000 you would understand that you
11 couldn't affect an entire assembly. If you
12 were a big community of slightly larger --
13 MR. MORRISH: Let me just say I'm
14 being very mild. In 1982 and 1992 I was
15 thrown out of several meetings. We don't have
16 to yell a lot. We know what you're up
17 against. I'm just happy that you're having a
18 hearing down here. I just think it's very
19 nice to give us an opportunity to state the
20 case.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Your
22 position is that you deserve an assembly
23 district not because you want one but because
24 you are the right size?
25 MR. MORRISH: Absolutely
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2 correct. Thank you very much.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Jack Carroll,
4 Central Brooklyn Democrats.
5 MR. CARROLL: Members of the task
6 force, thank you very much for giving me the
7 opportunity to speak. I'm here representing
8 Central Brooklyn Independent Democrats, which
9 as the name implies or states is a democratic
10 club which has traditionally served, and for
11 the past 34 years, has served the contiguous
12 and homogeneous communities of Park Slope,
13 Windsor Terrace and Kensington. All clustered
14 around Prospect Park in central Brooklyn.
15 I'm here today specifically to
16 discuss geography, as so many of the speakers
17 who have come before you have done. I'm very
18 conscious of the obligation that this task
19 force, and ultimately the legislature, to
20 protect the many diverse ethnic and racial
21 minority communities throughout the state.
22 Certainly the African-American community in
23 Brooklyn, the Latino community in Brooklyn and
24 the growing Asian-American and Chinese
25 community in Brooklyn all deserve
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2 consideration from this task force and all
3 deserve to have their interests protected in
4 terms of representation.
5 With that said, however, I would
6 like to focus the commission's attention on a
7 specific geographic area in Brooklyn which I
8 feel has been very ill served by past
9 reapportionments, and that specific geographic
10 area is the historic community of Park Slope
11 in Brooklyn.
12 Park Slope is one of the most
13 historic communities in the borough of
14 Brooklyn and in the City of New York. It is a
15 compact and contiguous district. It is a
16 district with clear geographic and
17 neighborhood lines. It is bounded by Flatbush
18 Avenue on the north. By Greenwood cemetery on
19 the south. By Prospect Park on the east. And
20 by Fourth Avenue on the west.
21 Notwithstanding the fact that this
22 is an area which has a very, very clear and
23 very, very well-established geographic lines
24 and that has been traditionally linked with
25 its contiguous neighbors and homogenous
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2 communities of Windsor Terrace and Kensington.
3 Park Slope is perhaps the most
4 gerrymandered district in New York City. It
5 has more representatives than any other
6 district that I'm aware of. All of those
7 representatives happen to be Democrats, so
8 it's not that that gerrymandering is
9 accomplishing any particular political
10 purpose. And even though there are a couple
11 of minority representatives who abut and come
12 a little bit into Park Slope, it does not
13 contribute significantly, in fact it
14 diminishes the minority representation in
15 those minority districts. It's not
16 accomplishing that objective of either.
17 Yet Park Slope is divided into four
18 assembly districts. The 44th AD represented
19 by Mr. Brennan. The 51st represented by Mr.
20 Ortiz. The 52nd represented by Ms. Millman.
21 And the 57th represented by Mr. Green.
22 Represented by three state senators, Mr.
23 Markowitz, Ms. Montgomery and Mr. Blackman.
24 It's represented by three congressmen,
25 Congressman Weiner, Congressman Owens and
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2 Congressman Velasquez. It's represented by
3 three city councilmen. Although I know you
4 folks don't handle that question and I need to
5 go before another commission for that. Just
6 as a point of illustration, it's represented
7 by Councilman DiBrienza, Councilman Fisher and
8 Councilman Rodriguez.
9 As I pointed out, this seems to
10 accomplish nothing other than to divide us,
11 this compact, contiguous community which
12 historically has been united and which it
13 would be in the best tradition of good
14 government and the drawing of compact and
15 contiguous and homogenous districts to keep it
16 intact. So I recommend that to you.
17 The split among all these various
18 representatives has had the same deleterious
19 impact on questions of accountability and on
20 questions of the delivery of community
21 services and on district office services to
22 the Park Slope community.
23 None of these representatives, with
24 the exception of one of the state senators,
25 lives in Park Slope. Yet it is a big
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2 community. None of these representatives --
3 some of these representatives indeed do have
4 community offices there. But if Park Slope
5 was represented by a single state senator, for
6 example, a single congressman, a single
7 assemblyman, as I will hope this committee
8 would recommend to the legislature, certainly
9 the level of representation and the level of
10 accountability would increase. I believe, as
11 I think most people believe, that districts
12 should be compact, contiguous and preserve
13 traditional community lines.
14 As I said at the outset of my
15 statement, I'm conscious of your obligation
16 and support your obligation to protect the
17 rights of the various minority groups, blacks,
18 Latinos, Asian-Americans, religious groups in
19 the borough of Brooklyn. Brooklyn is an
20 ethnically diverse community. Certainly Park
21 Slope is one of the most racially, ethnically
22 and religiously diverse communities in the
23 borough of Brooklyn.
24 Park Slope doesn't contribute to
25 any of those objectives. It doesn't
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2 contribute to creating minority districts. It
3 doesn't contribute to accomplishing a
4 political objective, since it is overwhelming
5 Democratic and is represented entirely by
6 Democratic elected representatives.
7 I recommend to you, I urge you to
8 consider uniting it and recommending that to
9 the legislature in the redistricting plan.
10 Thank you.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I'm not sure
12 how far north and west Park Slope really is.
13 MR. CARROLL: The boundaries of
14 Park Slope, and my family has lived there for
15 more than 80 years, the boundaries of Park
16 Slope traditionally, and I believe if you
17 looked at an historic map of Brooklyn or asked
18 the representatives of the Park Slope civic
19 counsel, they would tell you that Park Slope
20 starts on the north at Flatbush Avenue, which
21 is a big wide street and natural boundary.
22 And then proceeds to the south to Greenwood
23 cemetery, which is also a natural boundary.
24 It then goes on the east to
25 Prospect Park, which is, of course, a natural
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2 boundary. And then on the west down to Fourth
3 Avenue. Some might argue down to Third
4 Avenue, but traditionally people have spoken
5 in terms of Fourth Avenue.
6 On the other side of that you would
7 be going into the areas of Gowanus and perhaps
8 Carroll Gardens and Cobble Hill.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How many
10 people live in Park Slope?
11 MR. CARROLL: Park Slope alone
12 probably doesn't have enough people to create
13 an assembly district. But when you add in the
14 contiguous neighborhoods to which it is
15 traditionally been linked, Windsor Terrace,
16 Kensington, I believe it's well in excess of
17 100,000 and creates an assembly district.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I just want
19 you to consider one other thing. When we were
20 in Binghamton, one of the thoughts we heard
21 there from representative from Cornell
22 University was that they like the fact that
23 Ithaca was in the junction of three
24 congressional districts. The reason was
25 because it gave them the ability to have very
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2 significant clout. Three congress people
3 lobbying for them.
4 I pose the flip side of your
5 dilemma. You said to us, send a person who is
6 focused exclusively to our district, yet you
7 rattled off eight members of the state
8 legislature who have part of Park Slope and
9 have, I assume, the interests of Park Slope
10 they sit and cast votes.
11 Would you rather have one or
12 eight?
13 MR. CARROLL: To be perfectly
14 frank, having work in that community both on a
15 political -- I sit on, as I would expect all
16 of you do and many people in politics do,
17 many, many not-for-profit organizations,
18 cultural institutions, religious organizations
19 that serve those three communities. Having
20 this incredibly diverse or large number of
21 representatives may sound great, but as a
22 practical matter it doesn't work. We do get
23 attention from them but we don't get the
24 amount of attention that we would from having
25 single representatives representing us.
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2 This is notwithstanding the fact
3 that Park Slope is one of the heaviest voting
4 areas and one of the most politically active
5 areas in the city of New York. It does
6 generate an enormous vote. For that reason,
7 yes, we do get their attention. But I think
8 the consensus among the community leadership
9 is we would prefer to be represented by a
10 single congressman, a single state senator, a
11 single assemblyman, a single city councilman
12 for all the reasons of accountability and for
13 all the reasons of being able to coordinate
14 the delivery of services. Which I believe is
15 the essence of a representative democracy.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
17 Paul Wooten.
18 Persida Roman.
19 MS. ROMAN: My name is Persida
20 Roman, and I am here today as an activist for
21 "Say No to Sweat Shop Inc." I want to speak
22 about a very important issue, fair
23 representation for all the people of Sunset
24 Park in Brooklyn, New York.
25 Sunset Park, my home for over 40
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2 years, stretches from 8th Avenue on the
3 waterfront, from 65th Street to Red Hook. Our
4 district covers at least 90 percent of Sunset
5 Park. The remaining 10 percent, which is the
6 industrial area and the waterfront, is
7 represented by another assembly district.
8 In addition, this 10 percent
9 represents a straight line from Red Hook up to
10 Bay Ridge. There are very few residents, as I
11 have already mentioned, that reside on the
12 waterfront. The waterfront is mostly an
13 industrial and commercial area.
14 Why should Sunset Park be divided
15 into two districts? I believe by including the
16 waterfront a positive effect will take place
17 on the quality of life for all the residents
18 of Sunset Park. We will then have a voice on
19 all parts of our community. A voice that will
20 allow us to decide what happens in all areas
21 of our community. Unlike what's happening now
22 with an unwanted power plant that has dropped
23 in on our community without proper
24 notification.
25 The person who represents 90
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2 percent of the residents of Sunset Park in
3 Albany should also represent the interest of
4 those residents when it comes to the
5 development of the waterfront. And the person
6 who represents the Sunset Park community
7 should be an assemblyperson who covers the
8 entire area from 8th Avenue to the waterfront
9 and from 65th Street to Red Hook.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Just to
11 clarify your point is that there are very few
12 people that live between Second Avenue and
13 Third Avenue on the waterfront. So why not
14 include them?
15 MS. ROMAN: There are no
16 residents living there. It's only an
17 industrial area.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Should they
19 be included?
20 MS. ROMAN: Yes, they should.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: And the
22 point is, because there's nobody there why was
23 it taken out?
24 MS. ROMAN: That's my question.
25 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you.
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2 Aliya Kuerban.
3 MS. KUERBAN: I'm Aliya Kuerban.
4 I'm grateful for the opportunity to testify
5 before you. I'm an Asian-American and I'm
6 here to present the interests and views of the
7 Asian-Americans residents living at Sunset
8 Park.
9 On the issue of redistricting that
10 community, Asian-Americans are a fast-growing
11 urban population in Brooklyn. However, the
12 community's political strength hasn't yet to
13 be fully realized because of the character of
14 the district boundaries.
15 We Asian-Americans share the same
16 culture, adopt the same philosophy to do our
17 business, read the same newspaper and even use
18 the same subway and bus. But we have to be
19 divided into different districts.
20 The character district boundaries
21 create many difficult confusions for
22 Asian-Americans social noninvolvement.
23 On the other hand, the greatest
24 needs within Asian-American communities are to
25 build an awareness of importance of civic
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2 participation and to increase voter
3 registration.
4 Statistics show that once
5 Asian-Americans register they are the most
6 active and engaging in the community.
7 Asian-Americans and other minority groups,
8 especially Latinos in Brooklyn, in the area
9 are hoping to translate the growing numbers of
10 the population into political and common
11 strengths.
12 We are asking the decision makers
13 to the area of district boundaries open to the
14 concerns of Asian, Latinos and other
15 underrepresented groups. We believe that
16 redistricting the Sunset Park area in Brooklyn
17 would increase the political participation,
18 improve the impact of immense media and public
19 opinion and vitalize the local economic
20 development. Thank you.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I can see
22 Sunset Park. What other areas?
23 MS. KUERBAN: I would say the
24 south part of Sunset Park. They have business
25 there. They have business in other district.
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2 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Which two
3 districts?
4 MS. KUERBAN: I would say 51st
5 district and 44th.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: They live
7 at 51st and businesses at 44. What part of
8 44th?
9 MS. KUERBAN: I would say the
10 connection of 51st and 44th. The south
11 project.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: Joel Farber.
13 MR. FARBER: Good morning, my
14 name is Joel Farber, and I'm an activist for
15 the sustainabilities of communities.
16 Currently I'm torn by the present political
17 condition in the Sunset Park and Red Hook
18 area. The lack of proper representation in
19 these communities greatly concerns me. By
20 proper representation I mean one assembly
21 person having jurisdiction over the geographic
22 area where his or her constituents reside.
23 I believe the necessary resources
24 for a community to take care of itself exists
25 within the self-same community. The greatest
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2 need is to upgrade the infrastructure of the
3 area and harnessing the human potential that
4 already exists. The task can only happen by
5 setting up the kind of political
6 representation I previously mentioned.
7 We must develop a comprehensive
8 plan to promote the overall growth of our
9 community. Our goal must be to bring together
10 government, business leaders and civil society
11 to achieve these ends. But we cannot do this
12 if our community is divided along districts
13 lines. For this reason our community should
14 not be divided into two districts. For this
15 reason we need one voice in Albany who speaks
16 not just for the residents of the areas, but
17 also speaks on their behalf when it comes to
18 economic development and the future of the
19 waterfront and the protection of the
20 environment.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Kristian
22 Hernandez.
23 MR. HERNANDEZ: Good morning. My
24 name is Kristian Hernandez. I'm here
25 representing the Sunset Park Local Development
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2 Corporation. We are a not-for-profit 501(c)
3 corporation whose mission is the promotion of
4 economic development and the enhancement of
5 the quality of life for all the residents of
6 Sunset Park and Red Hook.
7 Of prime importance to all the
8 residents of Sunset Park is the fact that our
9 assembly person in Albany represents nearly 95
10 percent of all the residents of the community,
11 but does not represent 5 percent of the area,
12 the industrial and commercial areas and the
13 waterfront.
14 The future developments along the
15 waterfront will naturally have a big impact on
16 the residents of the area. The economic
17 impact that this commercial and industrial
18 area will have on the quality of life of the
19 residents in Sunset Park will be enormous.
20 It is common sense that the entire
21 Sunset Park area should be in one assembly
22 district. The residents of Sunset Park demand
23 that one assembly district represent the
24 entire area of Sunset Park, from 8th Avenue to
25 the waterfront, from 65th Street to Red Hook.
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2 SENATOR SKELOS: Sal Catucci.
3 MR. CATUCCI: Actually Kevin.
4 I'm here today representing
5 American Stevedoring and our 600 employees at
6 the Red Hook marine terminal in Red Hook,
7 Brooklyn.
8 I'm here to comment on the
9 waterfront district from Red Hook to Sunset
10 Park, now being represented by Congressman
11 Gerald Nadler.
12 This district covering several
13 residential communities are intrinsically
14 bound by unique needs directly connected to
15 this city's transportation needs and
16 industry.
17 Any fractionating of this
18 industrial waterfront area would be a great
19 detriment to our city and Representative
20 Nadler's ability to service those needs
21 through his powerful seat on the congressional
22 transportation committee.
23 As executive vice president of
24 American Stevedoring I possess intimate
25 knowledge of the successful efforts that
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2 representative Nadler has championed
3 throughout this city's transportation
4 infrastructure. The planning and the
5 investment that Gerald Nadler has guided into
6 cargo-based transportation strategies
7 implemented here in New York has been
8 indispensable to the city.
9 His tenacious efforts to improve
10 rail and highway access for commercial
11 endeavors, consumers and the public as a whole
12 have all proven successful and brilliantly
13 conceived.
14 The creation of the cross-harbor
15 float bridge that carries rail cars to our
16 local docks and support of the cross-harbor
17 container barges have not only served to
18 increase employment directly within our
19 communities, but also support our local
20 manufacturing and consumer basis.
21 At the same time, these anything
22 but risky schemes have substantially reduced
23 truck traffic in and around our port, highway
24 congestion has eased, air quality has improved
25 and less wear and tear is inflicted on our
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2 roadways by heavy trucks.
3 Representative Nadler's vision and
4 big picture understanding of the needs of the
5 many are invaluable to the people of New York
6 and Brooklyn. His tireless leadership and
7 efforts focused on our city's transportation
8 requirements have seen results just short
9 miraculous.
10 We at American Stevedoring are
11 partners in the transportation industry and I
12 have the consent of the International
13 Longshoremen's Association to what I'm saying
14 here today, look forward to working with and
15 being of service to representative Nadler and
16 the people of New York for decades come.
17 Thank you.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Maurice Hedaya.
19 MR. HEDAYA: Good morning, and
20 thank you gentlemen for seeing me. I think
21 I'm the first unlisted speaker. I'm with the
22 Sephardic Voters League. We live in southern
23 Brooklyn.
24 I have nine points that will take
25 about nine seconds.
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2 One, please keep our community
3 intact. Do not punish us for the intensive
4 year 2000 census efforts that we expended.
5 New York City gained population as well and we
6 should not lose representation. I'm putting
7 into the record several letters that I wrote
8 to Gene Borsch, the regional director of the
9 census, which indicates the amount of interest
10 in our community. At one point I needed 3,000
11 additional forms, approximately, in addition
12 to those that were mailed. It shows that we
13 trying to do a correct job and we should not
14 be punished.
15 We would like you to retain our
16 neighborhood uniqueness as a result. We have
17 senior citizen homes, health and welfare
18 divisions, schools, community centers,
19 synagogues, restaurants and other cultural
20 things. We would like to have them retained
21 as part of our community. Enable us like
22 Astoria, Queens and like Far Rockaway to be,
23 quote, ungerrymandered.
24 Add another assembly district for
25 our populace southern Brooklyn area. Add
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2 another district. Don't mince us into little
3 bushes. E.g., there are five congressional
4 districts in southern Brooklyn and three in
5 Midwood alone. That is Mr. Nadler, Owens and
6 Weiner.
7 Our legislators, current and
8 future, will get to know our localisms. We
9 would like to retain it the way it is and that
10 should be encouraged. And we would like you
11 to do what the English call harmonize our
12 districts, if we can.
13 We would like to point out that
14 taxation without representation is not a good
15 idea. And if we don't get the representation
16 that you folks can work into your program, I'm
17 afraid that some of the people who live in
18 Brooklyn will move. They are taxpayers.
19 Tremendous workers. Contribute to the
20 community in every respect. They'll leave.
21 We want to try to retain our useful citizens.
22 The approximate boundaries that
23 these Sephardic people live in are McDonald
24 Avenue, along Avenue U, to Bedford Avenue, to
25 Avenue J and back to McDonald Avenue.
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2 Thank you very much.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How big a
4 population would you estimate is in that
5 community?
6 MR. HEDAYA: I don't know.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you.
8 Michael Fuller.
9 MR. FULLER: Good morning. I
10 appreciate the chance you guys have given me
11 to speak. Coming all the way from the
12 Southern Tier, the Finger Lakes region of New
13 York, we were at the hearing yesterday in
14 Manhattan and attended both Syracuse and
15 Binghamton as well. This is a major issue for
16 us in the 31st congressional district.
17 I wasn't planning to testify here
18 today, but I thought I should just so you guys
19 understand the issue you are dealing with. We
20 realize it's a numbers game and we have to
21 come up with 80,000 more people.
22 What we are asking is that when you
23 do that, we would hope that you keep the
24 congressional district as much as possible
25 intact as a rural congressional district.
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2 There is a lot of communication throughout the
3 congressional district, and we believe that
4 places like New York City, Rochester, Buffalo
5 that they are all unique places, but they
6 don't have the same problems and priorities
7 that some of the small rural communities
8 have. Such as in the 31st congressional
9 district.
10 We do have an effort, which is Team
11 31. I'm sure you guys have recognized us in
12 Syracuse and Binghamton. But I came here
13 today and submitted testimony from business
14 people from the 31st district. It is a
15 bipartisan effort that we are doing. Stan
16 Lundine was a former congressman, a democrat
17 out of Jamestown. We have a former mayor from
18 Elmira who testified in Binghamton. He was a
19 democrat and is currently a councilman for the
20 city of Elmira. As well as Sean Cogan, who is
21 the chairman of the Steuban County Democrats.
22 So I don't want you to think this
23 is a partisan thing. Everybody in the 31st
24 district is working for this, circulating
25 petitions. Business are involved. Community
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2 leaders throughout the district. And again, I
3 would just like to thank you. Sorry, I didn't
4 have anything more prepared, but I will be
5 welcome to any question that you guys have.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. Fuller,
7 you've sat through a couple of hearings you've
8 heard us talk about the problems we face in
9 New York City. Given all that experience that
10 you had, do you have any further or different
11 conclusion which respect that we should go
12 further east or north and south, further
13 north, to make the 31st? Which -- I keep
14 telling everybody there will never be will a
15 31st district, we can only get 29 -- but
16 assuming it will have the last number, the new
17 29, do you have any further sense of whether
18 to go further east or simply go north to more
19 of the Finger Lakes as we have discussed?
20 MR. FULLER: I do see a
21 possibility of going both ways or a
22 combination of each, because if we do push a
23 little further north it is, without going up
24 as far as Buffalo or Rochester, it is more of
25 a rural type community that has the same
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2 type.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We can stay
4 south of the thruway once we got past Buffalo
5 all the way to Syracuse and it's still pretty
6 rural.
7 MR. FULLER: Right, and that's a
8 possibility. And I don't envy the job that
9 you people have because it is a tough job
10 trying to come up with the numbers. But I see
11 a lot of possibilities here. A lot of
12 different choices that we could take and still
13 keep the rural nature that we currently have.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you.
15 Does anyone else wish to be heard
16 before we close the hearing?
17 (No response.)
18 SENATOR SKELOS: If not, with the
19 consent of the members this meeting is
20 adjourned.
21 (TIME NOTED: 12:10 P.M.)
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4 CERTIFICATION
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6
7
8 I, FRANK GRAY, a Notary
9 Public in and for the State of New
10 York, do hereby certify:
11 THAT the foregoing is a true and
12 accurate transcript of my stenographic
13 notes.
14 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have
15 hereunto set my hand this 15th day of
16 June 2001.
17
18
19 ---------------------------------
20 FRANK GRAY
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