5
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Good morning.
3 My apologies for being late. We took a
4 wrong turn, and had the opportunity to
5 explore some of the Staten Island.
6 This hearing is called to order. I am
7 Assemblyman Bill Parment. I represent most
8 of Chautauqua County in the New York State
9 Assembly, and I am the co-chair of the
10 Legislative Task Force on Demographic
11 Research and Reapportionment.
12 The Task Force is created by a State
13 Law. The appointments to the Task Force are
14 divided between the Majority Leader of the
15 State Senate, the Speaker of the State
16 Assembly, the Minority Leader of the State
17 Assembly, and the Minority Leader of the
18 State Senate.
19 There are six members of the Task
20 Force. The Task Force is charged with the
21 responsibility of recommending to the New
22 York State Legislature a plan for the
23 redistricting of the State Assembly, State
24 Senate and Congressional seats for New York
.6
1 State.
2 We are conducting a series of hearings
3 around New York State to take public
4 testimony, to gain input and gain insight to
5 the problems that this Task will have for
6 communities around the State, and it is our
7 hope that at the completion of this round of
8 hearings, that we will then be able to draw
9 districts that accurately reflect the
10 communities of interests and concerns for
11 the people of the State of New York.
12 After drawing that set of plans, I am
13 hopeful that we will then have an additional
14 round of hearings on proposed plans, prior
15 to making a recommendation to the New York
16 State Legislature for enactment.
17 With that, I would just turn it over to
18 my colleague, Vinnie Bruy, who is
19 representing the State Senate.
20 MR. BRUY: Good morning. Senator
21 Skelos was unable to be here today, but he
22 asked me to read the following statement.
23 We wish to welcome everybody to the
24 Legislative Task Force on Demographic
.7
1 Research and Reapportionment, eighth of
2 eleven public hearings currently being held
3 around the State.
4 The purpose of these hearings is to
5 obtain input from the general public on the
6 wide range of issues impacting our State's
7 process in drawing Congressional, State
8 Senate and Assembly district boundaries. In
9 doing so, the Task Force must meet
10 requirements of Federal and State laws and
11 regulations, as well as numerous Court
12 decisions.
13 The goal of this reapportionment
14 process is to provide fair and effective
15 representation for all citizens of this
16 great State.
17 These hearing are an important step
18 towards providing such representation.
19 We are requesting that you keep your
20 testimony to five minutes, and we will go in
21 order.
22 Thank you.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Mr. Dollinger.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will go next.
.8
1 I am Senator Rick Dollinger. I represent
2 about half of Monroe County, including most
3 of the City of Rochester and two of its
4 suburbs, the towns of Brighton and Greece.
5 I am the Democratic Senate appointee to
6 this Commission, appointed by the Democratic
7 Leader, Martin Connor.
8 As both of my colleagues, Mr. Bruy and
9 Assemblyman Parment, have pointed out, this
10 is the eighth in a series of hearings in
11 which we have covered the State. This is
12 the last of our hearings in the five
13 boroughs of the City of New York. We have
14 been in Suffolk County, Syracuse and
15 Binghamton. In addition to that, we are
16 going to Westchester tomorrow morning.
17 I would just add two quick things.
18 One, I think it is safe to say that we
19 have heard a lot of incumbent praise in the
20 course of the last seven hearings, and
21 people who have come in and told us that
22 they have their Congressman, Assemblyman or
23 Senator of their choice, and that they want
24 to keep them.
.9
1 That is really not our job to keep a
2 particular incumbent in a particular
3 community. Our job is to take the census
4 data from the United States Census Bureau,
5 and come up with district lines, as both Mr.
6 Bruy and Assemblyman Parment pointed out, to
7 try to bring communities of interest
8 together, and communities that have things
9 in common, to give them a chance to elect
10 their representative of their choice.
11 So, I look forward to this hearing. It
12 is the first time I have been on Staten
13 Island, and you have a beautiful community
14 here, and I am pleased to be here, and look
15 forward to the testimony.
16 Thank you.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Mr. Ortloff.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: My name is
19 Chris Ortloff. I represent Southern Quebec
20 -- a joke, but it does drive home a point.
21 I come from Plattsburgh, the last stop on
22 I-87 before you get to Canada, and a
23 shoulder to the State of Vermont.
24 I just mention that, because as we
.10
1 travel the State, what we learned in school
2 is underscored by the reality of what we
3 hear from you.
4 We are here because the Constitution of
5 the United States and the decision of the
6 United State Supreme Court says, for the
7 last thirty-seven years, that State
8 Legislative Districts, along with
9 Congressional Districts, must be redrawn
10 every ten years in accordance with the
11 results of the census.
12 We are also here to try to do that job
13 in a way that accurately and effectively
14 represents the way New Yorkers live in
15 communities.
16 Communities are small places. We are a
17 big state of a little over eighteen million
18 people, but we are made up like every state,
19 of small communities where people know their
20 schools, they know their shops, they know
21 the post office, they know their neighbors,
22 they know how to get around, they know where
23 to turn to for help, and they expect, and
24 indeed the Constitution requires us, to draw
.11
1 district lines that reflect and amplify the
2 existence of those communities, not split
3 them and disenfranchise them.
4 So, it is a difficult job. It can only
5 be done if we hear from the people who live
6 there, in each of these communities. How
7 their current lines assist them in good
8 representation or how they thwart them. How
9 changing demographics need to be responded
10 to, or how some districts ought to stay the
11 same. Those are the things that, as Senator
12 Dollinger reflected a minute ago, we want to
13 hear today.
14 It is important, of course, who serves,
15 but it is most important that long after any
16 of us have ceased serving, the communities
17 of New York State will continue to exist,
18 and it is for them and the people that live
19 in them that we are doing our job.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
21 Okay, our first -- one thought. I need to
22 want to mention too that we have been joined
23 by Assemblymember Lavelle, from Staten
24 Island, who is here with us in the
.12
1 auditorium.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. Chairman, I
3 would just like to introduce my colleague
4 from the State Senate, Senator Vincent
5 Gentile, as well. Welcome.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: The first
7 witness is Mr. Joseph Pagan. Ms. Belinda
8 Dixon. Councilman Marty Golden.
9 COUNCILMAN GOLDEN: Good morning,
10 ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for coming
11 into Staten Island today, and into the
12 borough to listen to my colleagues in
13 government, and to the community, on some
14 what we believe is changes that need to be
15 taken in the future to make sure that we
16 have contiguous neighborhoods.
17 I want to thank you for giving me this
18 opportunity to speak to you today about this
19 very important task that faces you in the
20 months ahead.
21 Communities are very important. People
22 who live in the same neighborhood often have
23 a number of common interests. They often
24 have the same transportation problems, the
.13
1 same qualify of life problems, the same
2 socio-economic status, and sometimes even
3 the same political orientation.
4 It would make sense that people who
5 have so many common interests would have a
6 common representative to make their case for
7 them in Washington, in Albany, and in City
8 Hall.
9 Unfortunately, it does not always work
10 that way. We all know that many factors
11 affect the drawing of district lines. I
12 would ask, however, that as you draft our
13 Congressional and Legislative districts this
14 year, you consider the importance of
15 maintaining the integrity of the
16 neighborhoods.
17 I speak to you as someone who knows how
18 it can effect a community. One of the
19 neighborhoods I represent in the City
20 Council is Bay Ridge, just on the other side
21 of this bridge, the Verrazano Bridge, and it
22 is divided between three assembly seats, the
23 52nd the 48th and the 46th.
24 The adjacent community, which is right
.14
1 next door, which I represent, is Dyker
2 Heights, and that is also divided into three
3 districts, which is the 46th, the 48th and
4 the 49th. That used to be all one district,
5 the 52nd. The two adjacent neighborhoods
6 are divided between four assembly districts.
7 Some suggest that this is a good thing, that
8 having so many representatives actually
9 enhances a community's influence. I think
10 we all know better.
11 I disagree. If a community is divided
12 and made an appendage to a district that
13 takes in other neighborhoods, there may not
14 be the common interest that would exist if
15 the neighborhood were kept together in a
16 single district. It may be impossible for a
17 legislator to adequately represent all of
18 its constituents, if a district is drawn
19 that divided neighborhoods and places and
20 parts of them in different districts.
21 We need to make sure that community
22 interest can be represented, and that our
23 representatives can effectively represent
24 all the people they serve.
.15
1 Therefore, I ask you when you design
2 our Legislative and Congressional Districts,
3 that you keep the issue of neighborhood
4 integrity close to your hearts. The Supreme
5 Court once said that legislators do not
6 represent trees, or rivers, or streams.
7 That is true. They represent people, and
8 people living in neighborhoods with common
9 needs and concerns should have a common
10 voice.
11 My community is about 150,000 people of
12 Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst and Dyker Heights.
13 That is one city council district, and that
14 is broken into four assembly districts, one
15 Senate district and one Congressional
16 district, which comes across the bridge here
17 into Staten Island. It should have one
18 assembly district that represents all of the
19 people of that community.
20 Thank you.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you, sir.
22 Earlene Bethel. Mr. Steven Harrison.
23 MR. HARRISON: Good morning. My name
24 is Steven Harrison, and I am the Chair of
.16
1 Community Board 10 in Brooklyn. That
2 roughly encompasses the neighborhoods of Bay
3 Ridge, Dyker Heights and Fort Hamilton. My
4 district holds up the Brooklyn side of the
5 Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, and probably most
6 of the Task Force passed through Community
7 Board 10 on the way to this hearing this
8 morning. I hope that's not where you got
9 lost.
10 The obvious question, of course, is why
11 I am testifying in Staten Island, rather
12 than in Brooklyn, and the answer is, to make
13 a point. Staten Island, and Community Board
14 10, share a common political district on
15 every level, Federal, State and Local.
16 Congressman Vito Fossella's district
17 encompasses Staten Island, but it also
18 encompasses most of the Community District
19 10.
20 State Senator Vincent Gentile's
21 district lies primarily in Community Board
22 10, but about one third of his district lies
23 in Staten Island.
24 City council member, James Oddo's
.17
1 district lies mostly in Staten Island, but a
2 portion of his district lies in Community
3 Board 10.
4 In short, Staten Island and Community
5 Board 10 are joined at the political hip.
6 On any governmental level, it would be
7 impossible to consider redistricting
8 Community Board 10, or on Staten Island,
9 without considering the other.
10 On May 21st, Community Board 10 passed
11 a resolution empowering me to testify here,
12 expressing our opinion, that Bay Ridge, and
13 Dyker Heights, and Fort Hamilton, are a
14 cohesive community as best served by
15 consolidated representation. Accordingly, I
16 call upon the Legislature to redraw the
17 lines, particularly the Assembly lines, to
18 better acknowledge the commonality of
19 interest in the neighborhoods of Community
20 Board 10.
21 Currently, Community Board 10,
22 represented by one State Senator, and
23 primarily by one council member, is divided
24 into four assembly districts. Two of the
.18
1 assembly districts connect to larger
2 portions of the same district in remote
3 locations.
4 One district is primarily in Coney
5 Island, and is connected to Bay Ridge only
6 by an unpopulated ribbon of the belt
7 parkway.
8 Another district is primarily in
9 Carroll Gardens, in downtown Brooklyn. It
10 connects to Bay Ridge through a sparsely
11 populated corridor of piers and industrial
12 zones, and none of the four assembly
13 districts to the people of Bay Ridge, and
14 Dyker Heights, and Fort Hamilton find
15 themselves in the majority.
16 There is virtually no hope that someone
17 from Bay Ridge or Dyker Heights will be
18 elected to these positions, thus, even
19 though some may say we have four members of
20 the Assembly, it is probably more accurate
21 to say that we have none.
22 Now, I must be clear. The issue here
23 is not the competence of our current elected
24 officials. All of our current
.19
1 Assemblymembers are very capable, but they
2 do not hail from Bay Ridge or Dyker Heights
3 or Fort Hamilton, and the majority of their
4 constituents come from other communities
5 that share little in common with Community
6 Board 10.
7 So, the question is whether the lines
8 should be redrawn to better represent and
9 preserve the social, political and
10 geographic integrity traditionally reflected
11 in the Civic Associations, the cultural
12 life, and the municipal districts of our
13 Community Board 10.
14 Our civic life revolves around a myriad
15 of associations, peppered with the names Bay
16 Ridge, Dyker Heights and Fort Hamilton. The
17 Bay Ridge Community Council is comprised of
18 over one hundred organizations hailing from
19 Bay Ridge.
20 The Dyker Heights Civic Association has
21 been the focus of civic life there since
22 1928. Fort Hamilton High School has taught
23 our children since the forties. We have an
24 Alliance of Bay Ridge Block Associations.
.20
1 The Bay Ridge Historical Society recalls our
2 heritage.
3 There are no Coney Island associations
4 or Carroll Garden associations in Community
5 Board 10. We are politically tethered to
6 them, however, by highways and industrial
7 zones.
8 We have three local newspapers that
9 cover Community Board 10, the "Bay Ridge
10 Home Reporter," the 'Bay Ridge Paper" and
11 the "Bay Ridge Courier." We do not read the
12 papers from Coney Island or Carroll Gardens
13 or Borough Park or Bensonhurst, not because
14 they are bad, but simply because we share a
15 few interests with these communities.
16 The phone book lists over one hundred
17 businesses within our district, using Bay
18 Ridge in the name, and eight with the name
19 Dyker. There is not one business within our
20 community that has the name Coney Island or
21 Carroll Gardens or Borough Park in it, and
22 yet all our Assemblymembers come from Coney
23 Island or Carroll Gardens or Borough Park.
24 We even have our own zoning district, a
.21
1 special Bay Ridge district. It was created
2 in 1978, to preserve the character of the
3 surrounding community. Why, because Bay
4 Ridge does have a specific character, a
5 character that defines it as one cohesive
6 community, worthy of vigorous representation
7 in the Assembly as a primary district, and
8 not as a secondary appendage to another
9 district that is down the road.
10 Community Board 10 does not seek to
11 micro-manage the drawing of the Assembly
12 districts. We understand that, given the
13 population distribution, it is unlikely that
14 the lines will be drawn to make one
15 Community Board 10 district in the Assembly,
16 so we do not ask for that.
17 The resolution passed by the Board is
18 simple, and it is direct. It merely states
19 that the neighborhoods of Community Board 10
20 are cohesive communities, best served by
21 consolidated representation. The lines
22 should be redrawn to make the election of a
23 Bay Ridge or a Dyker Heights or Fort
24 Hamilton member of the Assembly likely.
.22
1 I thank you for your time.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Just a couple
3 of questions about this area.
4 If, in fact, the resultant plan that we
5 draw would create a district or districts
6 that would include, within the district,
7 geographic areas both in Brooklyn and Staten
8 Island, being the closest, I guess, to
9 landfall between the two areas, would the
10 Community Board 10 region be more similar to
11 Staten Island than it is to Coney Island?
12 MR. HARRISON: I am testifying here
13 today on behalf of the Community Board, and
14 in a very limited capacity. I want that to
15 be very clear, as to what I can say on their
16 behalf. I can say that on a personal level
17 I do not think that it would be
18 objectionable if something had to be
19 connected to Staten Island. Clearly, every
20 other level that we have in Community Board
21 10 is connected to Staten Island in some
22 way.
23 As I stated, our Congressional District
24 is connected to Staten Island, our State
.23
1 Senate District is connected to Staten
2 Island, and one of our Councilmatic
3 districts, a small part, not Councilman
4 Golden's but another one, is also connected
5 to Staten Island, and that has not seemed to
6 pose a problem.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Is the
8 Community Board actually physically
9 associated with Staten Island, or is it all
10 on the Brooklyn side?
11 MR. HARRISON: No. The Community
12 Board is totally on --
13 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: On the Brooklyn
14 side.
15 MR. HARRISON: -- within the Brooklyn
16 side.
17 I think that the crux of my testimony,
18 on behalf of the Community Board, is that we
19 would like to see that there would be
20 somebody in the State Assembly who came from
21 the Community Board area. We recognize that
22 we are probably not going to get one
23 cohesive district, but we would like to see
24 at least one district in which the
.24
1 possibility of an election of someone from
2 our area would be likely.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you. Any
4 other questions?
5 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: This is an
6 important question, so although I think I
7 understand it, and I think you know what you
8 meant, I wonder if I could invite you to
9 explain why that is important?
10 MR. HARRISON: It is important
11 because, I think that -- because Bay Ridge
12 is a cohesive community.
13 We are people -- and to tell you the
14 truth, Assemblyman, I think that you said it
15 very well in your opening statements.
16 We are a community. We have 120,000
17 people in our community. That is larger
18 than the City of Albany, and we have
19 effectively been, since the early 1980's,
20 deprived of somebody in the Assembly, who
21 would represent our interests.
22 I was very, very careful to state that
23 the people who currently represent us, and I
24 know them all, are very capable assembly
.25
1 people, but they do not come from Bay Ridge,
2 and when conflicts of interest arise,
3 Carroll Gardens v. Bay Ridge, there is a
4 conflict there, and even though the
5 Assemblyperson from that area is wonderful,
6 we know what is going to happen under those
7 circumstances. The majority, her
8 constituents come from Carroll Gardens.
9 We have another one whose constituents
10 come from Coney Island. We have another
11 whose constituents come from Bensonhurst,
12 and another one from Borough Park. We are
13 not from those areas.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Your community
15 is how big?
16 MR. HARRISON: About 120,000.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: How large is an
18 assembly district?
19 MR. HARRISON: You have to tell me
20 how much.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: About 120,000.
22 MR. HARRISON: About 120,000.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Thank you.
24 MR. HARRISON: Well, if you wanted to
.26
1 do one, that would --
2 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: You make a good
3 point.
4 MR. HARRISON: Thank you.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I was just going
6 to ask -- perhaps you could just explain it
7 to me. These three communities that you
8 talk about, Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights and
9 Fort Hamilton, are they -- do they have any
10 evidence of voting as a politically cohesive
11 unit, do you know?
12 MR. HARRISON: I do not quite
13 understand what you mean. Do you mean, are
14 they both Democratic or Republican or
15 something of that nature?
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, do they
17 vote for particular candidates in large
18 numbers, do they have a pattern or have you
19 had done anything to take a look at voting
20 patterns in this district, in this area?
21 MR. HARRISON: I will tell you this
22 that Congressman Fossella, if this helps, is
23 a Republican. Senator Vincent Gentile is
24 Democratic, and all four Assembly Districts
.27
1 are Democratic.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One of the things
3 I would suggest to you, Mr. Harrison, is
4 that at some point, I hope in the near
5 future, there will be a website up through
6 this Task Force, which should give you
7 access to all kinds of population data,
8 political data and other data, that would
9 assist you or give you the opportunity to
10 develop a plan for an Assembly District in
11 this neighborhood combining that, and if you
12 avail yourself of that opportunity, I would
13 just like to add one caveat to it, and that
14 is that to some extent, one of the very
15 difficult jobs that this Task Force faces,
16 is that if we accommodate the needs of one
17 particular group or neighborhood -- if we
18 take one select group, and we say, we're
19 going to preserve Bay Ridge and Dyker
20 Heights and Fort Hamilton, remember we have
21 to fill in the jigsaw puzzle around it, and
22 one of the questions is, to what extent do
23 we carve up other communities in order to
24 accommodate a particular community such as
.28
1 you mention.
2 We have heard lots of people come in
3 throughout the City of New York, and talk
4 about the importance of their neighborhoods,
5 which is exactly why we are here, to get
6 that kind of information. But, when you
7 think about the big puzzle, interlocking 150
8 Assembly Districts across the State, 61
9 Senate Districts, and 29 Congressional
10 Districts, we may not be able to preserve
11 every single community.
12 And the reason why I make that point is
13 because, if you do draw us a plan, which I
14 would encourage you to do -- I think your
15 Community Board is perfectly postured to
16 give us your ideas on what the plan would
17 look like.
18 If you are going to help us to that
19 extent, help us even further by taking a
20 look at the surrounding area, and figuring
21 out what advice you would give us about the
22 surrounding areas, which may emphasize to
23 you how incredibly complex and difficult the
24 task is that we face, because while we might
.29
1 be inclined to preserve Bay Ridge and Dyker
2 Heights in one group, that means that we may
3 have to go to other places nearby and divide
4 them up, which means, we are, in essence,
5 sacrificing other communities of interest
6 for yours.
7 I just give you that sense to give you
8 a little impression of how complicated and
9 complex what we are trying to do is.
10 MR. HARRISON: I think that both I
11 and the entire Board recognize that, and
12 that is why we did not try to micro-manage
13 and say, we want the district drawn this way
14 at this particular time. If you would like
15 us to do that, I am sure we could sit down
16 and do it.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It would just
18 encourage you -- one of the things that we
19 have attempted to do is to give enough
20 public access to community groups, so that
21 they can draw a single plan, a multi-plan, a
22 plan for both boroughs. You could draw one
23 for Staten Island, draw one for Brooklyn.
24 Frankly, the more little maps we get, the
.30
1 better we will know exactly what you want,
2 and exactly where the communities of
3 interest exist.
4 MR. HARRISON: We will give you as
5 many little maps as we can draw.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would encourage
7 you, grab your history professor and your
8 political science teachers, and give them
9 the maps and tell them to come up with
10 something, and let us know what it looks
11 like.
12 MR. HARRISON: I will do that, and I
13 thank you for your time.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Senator Vincent
16 Gentile.
17 SENATOR GENTILE: Thank you, Chairman
18 Parment, members and fellow colleagues from
19 the Assembly and the Senate.
20 Welcome to an area of New York State
21 that I have come to know and love, the
22 island of Staten Island. I think John
23 Marchi has kept this secret for many, many
24 years, and certainly, I believe, that the
.31
1 word is getting out that Staten Island is a
2 beautiful place.
3 So, I welcome you, and I wish to thank
4 you, as my colleagues on the Legislative
5 Task Force on Demographic Research and
6 Reapportionment, for this opportunity to
7 express my views on the redistricting
8 process that creates the new Congressional
9 State Senate and Assembly district
10 boundaries.
11 In the State Senate, I represent the
12 Northeast Shore of Staten Island, and parts
13 of Southwest Brooklyn, including all of
14 Community Board 10, of which Chairman
15 Harrison just spoke of, and that includes
16 the communities of Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst,
17 Dyker Heights, a little bit of Sunset Park
18 and a little bit of Boro Park.
19 Certainly, that portion of my district
20 is full, complete and contiguous. However,
21 on Staten Island, that is not necessarily
22 the case.
23 The census figures on Staten Island are
24 impressive. The increase in Staten Island
.32
1 population has been a 17% increase in
2 population since 1990, making Richmond
3 County New York State's fastest growing
4 county. In fact, one of the areas I
5 represent, which is Rosebank in Staten
6 Island, is reported to be the fastest
7 growing neighborhood in the State, with a
8 41% overall increase in population.
9 My Senate district is the third largest
10 in population in all the districts of New
11 York State, and most of that growth has come
12 from Staten Island.
13 Indeed, Senator Marchi's district is
14 not far behind mine in total population.
15 So, it is clear that new lines need to be
16 drawn to reflect that increase in the Staten
17 Island population.
18 Probably, though, more important than
19 the population growth has been the growth in
20 diversity in Staten Island. Although the
21 smallest borough citywide, our diversity in
22 Staten Island is reflected in our
23 neighborhoods from the North Shore to the
24 South Shore. Our neighborhoods have a
.33
1 profound and distinct history.
2 Therefore, as the Task Force undertakes
3 its important mandate of adjusting our
4 Legislative districts to reflect the shifts
5 in our State's population, I believe that
6 the issue, as others have indicated, is
7 paramount and must be considered before all
8 others, and that is -- and as Senator
9 Dollinger said -- you have to look at the
10 big picture and the entire puzzle, and I
11 have, Senator, and I say, to the extent
12 possible, Legislative districts should be
13 drawn to respect that identity and integrity
14 of individual communities and neighborhoods.
15 As elected officials, we may have a
16 tendency to view the world through the
17 numbers that are assigned to the districts
18 within the sometimes incongruous boundaries
19 that are set for our Congressional and
20 Legislative areas.
21 However, the constituents we represent
22 identify themselves by neighborhoods, in
23 which they live and work, and that is only
24 natural when neighborhoods and their
.34
1 residents often share that common heritage
2 or identity which Legislative districts
3 lack.
4 As an elected official, I know that the
5 issues that seem to effect one part of a
6 neighborhood frequently come to effect the
7 entire neighborhood. If the entire
8 neighborhood is represented by one member of
9 Congress, one member of the State Senate, as
10 the case in the Brooklyn portion of my
11 district, it is easier for that elected
12 official to advocate for that issue and
13 avoid the confusion of dividing the
14 responsibility for advocacy between a cadre
15 of officials.
16 At the same time, I believe that an
17 individual's faith in their government is
18 strengthened when that individual knows that
19 the officials who understands all the
20 nuances and complexities of that community
21 represents that neighborhood. Splitting
22 communities in Legislative districts only
23 serves to marginalize the residents of those
24 communities, and that is an anathema to the
.35
1 ideals of both our State and our Nation.
2 That splitting has occurred in the Staten
3 Island portion of my district, as closely
4 knit communities are split between the 23rd
5 and the 24th Senate Districts. The same is
6 the case for my mid-Island district, in the
7 New Dorp and South Beach and Midland Beach
8 areas.
9 On a final note, I would like to again
10 state, as I did in my letter of July 2nd to
11 the Legislative Task Force, that I also have
12 asked that in an effort to more accurately
13 gain input and testimony from all Staten
14 Islanders and Brooklynites alike, an
15 additional hearing be located at a more
16 readily accessible venue in Staten Island,
17 and that the hearing include the evening
18 hours of 5:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m., to allow
19 those who work during the day a chance to
20 attend these hearings. The one scheduled
21 here at the College of Staten Island, while
22 it is a beautiful campus and a beautiful
23 scenery, it is not a location at which many
24 who would otherwise testify, particularly
.36
1 from the North Shore of Staten Island, find
2 accessible, and readily easy to get to by
3 mass transit.
4 Therefore, I request that when you come
5 back with your preliminary plans, that you
6 schedule an additional hearing in the St.
7 George/Borough Hall area, near the ferry
8 terminal. This location is ideally suited
9 for the greatest amount of community
10 participation from Staten Island,
11 particularly due to its central
12 transportation hub of railroad, ferry and
13 bus locations. I hope that you will
14 consider this request expeditiously.
15 Again, I thank you for the opportunity
16 to express my view, and look forward to more
17 opportunities for dialogue on this most
18 important matter of redistricting.
19 Thank you very much.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Senator.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one
22 question. Your district, the 23rd District,
23 as you point out, has been one of the
24 fastest growing districts in the last decade
.37
1 of the census.
2 Has most of that growth occurred in the
3 Staten Island portion of the district?
4 SENATOR GENTILE: It has been the
5 Staten Island third of my district that has
6 grown the largest.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you see any
8 reason -- you are familiar with the zoning,
9 and the available open space, and the
10 pattern of development.
11 Would you anticipate that the rate of
12 growth in that portion of Staten Island, the
13 eastern portion of Staten Island, would
14 continue through the next decade?
15 SENATOR GENTILE: I would say at
16 least for the next ten years there will be a
17 significant increase. It has become a major
18 issue on Staten Island, the rate of growth,
19 but I would say over the next five to ten
20 years, we will continue to see a rise.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You would see the
22 same trend in growth and development of new
23 housing or the conversion of housing,
24 single-family homes to multiple-family, or
.38
1 however that new population comes to roost
2 in Staten Island. Your suggestion is that
3 the population trend would continue?
4 SENATOR GENTILE: Would continue.
5 Maybe not at the same rate, but it will
6 continue to go up. I would think more so
7 than the other boroughs.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just so I am
9 clear. It is your sense that that portion
10 of Staten Island would grow as it has in the
11 past, at a faster rate than most of the rest
12 of the City?
13 SENATOR GENTILE: Correct.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The reason why I
15 ask that is because, as you know, we have
16 deviations that we can make a part of our
17 process, in the sense -- and for those in
18 the audience who may not know, we are under
19 a constraint to make sure that the
20 Congressional districts are all but
21 completely equal in population. The last
22 time around, and other people would know
23 this better than I, but we drew thirty-one
24 Congressional seats, and they only differed
.39
1 by one person. They were all identical in
2 size.
3 In the Assembly districts and the
4 Senate districts, we have the ability to
5 vary the size of the district. The target
6 number for the Senate is 311,000, and for
7 the Assembly it is 126,000 and change, and
8 so we can make the districts either bigger
9 or smaller. One of the things that I think
10 this commission needs to think about is, in
11 areas of the State where we anticipate
12 substantial growth, to deviate on the
13 smaller side, so that in the middle of the
14 next decade, by 2005, 2006, we won't end up
15 in a position where if we put, for example,
16 Senator, your district on the high side of
17 that deviation, and your district continues
18 to grow at 15% as it has over the last
19 decade, we will end up with a district that
20 is very large, and one that is substantially
21 in excess of the norm.
22 So, that is why my question to you is,
23 it would be your opinion, based on
24 representing this district for the last
.40
1 decade, that the trend in further population
2 in the eastern portion of Staten Island
3 would continue, maybe not at the exact rate,
4 but at something comparable.
5 SENATOR GENTILE: Maybe not at the
6 exact rate, but I think it will continue to
7 go up, and I think we have seen that over
8 the last ten years with the fact that
9 Senator Marchi's district is significantly
10 over the 311,000, and my district is
11 considerably over the 311,000, and that is
12 due particularly to the Staten Island
13 portion of my district.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
15 SENATOR GENTILE: Thank you.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you. Mr.
17 John Flateau.
18 MR. FLATEAU: Thank you for this
19 opportunity to speak before you today. I
20 testified before the Task Force at the
21 Brooklyn Hearing on May 18th, and made
22 several recommendations concerning Task
23 Force policies and procedures, public
24 participation in the redistricting process,
.41
1 and public access to redistricting
2 information. Other witnesses, both in
3 Brooklyn and at other hearings, express
4 similar concerns. I commend the Task Force
5 for making significant progress in
6 addressing a number of these issues.
7 I, and others, recommended, and the
8 Task Force has recently announced, that a
9 website will be set up , and that your
10 databases, including political data, will be
11 available to the public on CD-ROM's and for
12 downloading from your website. Your have
13 also issued guidelines, preliminary
14 guidelines, for the public to submit
15 redistricting plans.
16 I congratulate you for taking these
17 steps to open up the process to public
18 participation. These are historic firsts
19 for the State's chief redistricting body.
20 However, I would like to mention a few
21 concerns for your consideration.
22 I would like to thank your Task Force
23 Co-Chair, Assemblyman Parment, for
24 participating in a recent conference on
.42
1 Census and Redistricting at the CUNY
2 Graduate Center, and sharing key information
3 with the conferees, including your recently
4 approved guidelines.
5 First, I would note that the Task Force
6 political database is to include election
7 returns for the 1997 New York City
8 elections, but the 1997 returns are not
9 listed as part of the database to be sold to
10 the public on CD-ROM and to be posted to
11 your website. I hope that this oversight
12 will be corrected, and that this data will
13 be made publicly available. That particular
14 election was the New York City Mayoral
15 Primary, where you had black and white
16 candidates running in the Democratic
17 Primary, Ruth Messinger and Al Sharpton.
18 So, that is a very important barometer, that
19 election, that should be studied as you deal
20 with the question and grapple with the issue
21 of drawing voting rights districts.
22 Secondly, I would note that your
23 political database extends only back to
24 1996. During the 1992 redistricting round,
.43
1 I was actively involved in a number of
2 voting rights cases. The 1992 PRLDEF v.
3 Gantt, which had to do with Congressional
4 and State Legislative redistricting. In
5 1997, the Diaz v. Silver case, which caused
6 half of New York City's Congressional
7 districts to be redrawn as a result of a
8 voting rights lawsuit.
9 The Task Force had a database at that
10 time that extended back almost ten years,
11 and as a certified voting rights witness
12 expert, I can tell you that there were
13 several important elections in 1992, 1993
14 and 1994, whose data is important for racial
15 bloc voting analysis and for Justice
16 Department submissions.
17 For example, the 1993 Mayoral general
18 election contained a highly racially
19 polarized Dinkins v. Guiliani contest, where
20 over 90% of black voters voted for Dinkins,
21 and approximately 80% of white voters voted
22 for Guiliani.
23 The 1994 general election contained the
24 State Comptroller's contest, in which New
.44
1 York elected Carl McCall, the State's first
2 African-American statewide elected official.
3 Incidentally, the McCall contest shows
4 a variance from typical racially polarized
5 voting. In other words, that particular
6 election data set argues the whole other
7 side of the equation in terms of a racial
8 voting. So, you definitely, I think, want
9 to have that in your database arsenal.
10 I urge that you add these elections,
11 and after further research, additional local
12 elections, including specific primary and
13 general elections, to the Task Force
14 political databases, and those local
15 elections will vary from community to
16 community. For example, I mentioned the
17 1993 Mayoral election in New York City.
18 Well, that does not apply anywhere else in
19 New York State. So, there could be
20 significant elections in Rochester, Buffalo
21 and Nassau County. I would urge that you
22 research out those local elections that
23 might provide the kinds of barometers and
24 data that you are going to need as you do
.45
1 your work.
2 Third, my review of Task Force
3 guidelines notes an omission as to the
4 specific ground rules for submission of
5 redistricting plans by the public. You
6 clearly signal your intent that technical
7 requirements for public plan submissions
8 will not be particularly onerous. This is
9 commendable, but further details should be
10 provided. I would just note the discussion
11 that took place between you, Senator
12 Dollinger, and the chairman of Planning
13 Board 10. The public needs to be very clear
14 about what those minimal requirements are.
15 Can he just come back in with the map of
16 Planning Board 10, or do you want him to
17 have 9, 11 and 12 attached? What are the
18 minimal requirements that the public, you
19 know, both professionals and civilians, are
20 going to have to abide by, in order for you
21 to seriously consider our work. It is
22 important to get this information out.
23 There are also no particular submission
24 deadlines mentioned, and, as you know, it is
.46
1 going to be particularly a major undertaking
2 and a lengthy undertaking for those of us
3 doing this work. So, it would be
4 appropriate for you to advise us as far in
5 advance as possible what the deadlines are
6 that we will working against.
7 At the above referenced conference that
8 I mentioned, the Census conference,
9 Assemblyman Parment gave some indication
10 that probably or approximately around
11 February of 2002, would be the time that
12 your work might conclude and go forward to
13 the Legislature. So, two key questions are,
14 if February, 2002, is the target date for
15 making your proposals to the Legislature,
16 working backwards from those dates, what
17 would be the dates by which the public must
18 submit their proposals to you, in order for
19 you to give those submissions serious
20 consideration, before you make your
21 recommendations to the Legislature.
22 Another issue relates to hearing
23 logistics. The next round of public
24 hearings should have more advanced
.47
1 publicity, should include evening and
2 weekend schedules, and I would echo Senator
3 Gentile's observation that they should be at
4 highly accessible locations, as well.
5 The next point is not on the page, but
6 I will mention it. It is very important.
7 Use of adjusted data, and this issue has
8 come up here by inference. I think if any
9 of us that are following the media accounts
10 as the census data is being released, it is
11 clear that there is another undercount. It
12 is not nearly what it was ten years ago, but
13 there is another undercount out there, and
14 it is my understanding that the New York
15 State Legislature has in its power the
16 decision as to whether or not you will use
17 adjusted data, at least for State
18 Legislative redistricting. You can decide
19 whether or not you want to use adjusted
20 data, and I would strongly urge that you use
21 adjusted data for State Legislative
22 redistricting.
23 Because of another point that Senator
24 Dollinger raised in the discussion with
.48
1 Senator Gentile, about deviations, the other
2 option you have is that if you know there
3 are certain areas that have been
4 undercounted, and those tend to be
5 communities that are poor communities,
6 immigrant communities and minority
7 communities, you have the option of using
8 the downside of those deviations. So that,
9 for example, if you know in Central Brooklyn
10 there is a general undercount there, rather
11 than drawing Senate districts at 311,000,
12 you have it within your power -- I think you
13 work with a 10% overall deviation, and you
14 could draw those districts smaller than
15 311,000. So we would urge that you consider
16 that option if the adjusted data decision
17 does not materialize.
18 Finally and respectfully, once again I
19 call your attention to what I call the great
20 "Achilles Heel" of this important
21 governmental body, in terms of your public
22 credibility and policy legitimacy. In the
23 great State of New York, which is over 25%
24 Black, Latino and Asian, according to Census
.49
1 2000, the entire six member Task Force
2 consists of a culturally monochromatic six
3 white males. With the recent expiration of
4 the Task Force's enabling statute and its
5 required renewal, just before the recent
6 legislative recess, the Legislature had a
7 golden opportunity to rectify this inequity.
8 I have read the letters. I have read the
9 legislative transcript of that discussion
10 that took place, and the results are
11 wanting.
12 What we have at this point is
13 bicameral, bipartisan, what I would describe
14 as political warfare, accusations, finger-
15 pointing, and exchanges of missives, but the
16 problem has not been solved. One of the
17 proposals would have held harmless everyone
18 that is sitting at this rostrum today. No
19 one would have to leave their seat. The
20 proposal, as I saw it in the Senate, would
21 have recommended that additional
22 appointments be made by the same appointing
23 authorities, which would give all appointing
24 authorities the option to balance out this
.50
1 Task Force. So that, instead, we still have
2 a situation where, with all due respect, you
3 have an all-white jury making the decision
4 about the political legislative
5 representation for all New Yorkers, and that
6 is not acceptable.
7 I would ask that folks take a step
8 back. You may need to bring in an
9 independent arbitrator. Maybe you can get
10 Cardinal Eagen or the Federal Mediation
11 Board or somebody to come in and resolve
12 this issue, because it will get resolved.
13 Twenty years ago, I was privileged to
14 be a part of a voting rights case, and
15 Anderson, by the way, was Senate Majority
16 Leader Warren Anderson. That is the
17 Anderson. I worked for the Legislature
18 twenty years ago, and that case was decided
19 by Thurgood Marshall. The Federal Courts
20 intervened. They superseded the
21 Legislature, to insure that New Yorkers were
22 guaranteed fair representation.
23 I would urge that you, the People's
24 branch, get your own house in order before
.51
1 others intervene and perform this task for
2 you. You are to be commended for carrying
3 out this difficulty and awesome
4 responsibility of the redesigning New York's
5 political representation for years to come.
6 You are admonished to provide equal
7 opportunity, fair representation, and
8 justice for all New Yorkers.
9 Thank you.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Roman.
11 DR. HEDGES: A couple of
12 observations. I think in terms of public
13 access and which particular election results
14 will be available to the public, it is
15 definitely a question that we are doing
16 research on. I think the initial idea of
17 focusing on the last three elections had to
18 do with our ability, as a practical matter,
19 to tie the census data and the election data
20 together, in a way that was technically
21 sound. When we go back to some of the
22 earlier elections, it is not really possible
23 to tie those elections to the 2000 Census,
24 but we are exploring the question of whether
.52
1 we can properly tie them to the 1990 Census,
2 as an alternative that is, both from a
3 statistical point of view and a practical
4 point of view, a viable one.
5 But I think your suggestions are ones
6 that we will take seriously, and I think
7 that Senator Dollinger has previously made
8 similar requests, and we are in the process
9 of exploring them and researching them and
10 trying to come to a good technical solution
11 to the practical problems of changes of the
12 election district borders and changes of the
13 census bloc borders that are profound
14 between the two censuses.
15 That having been said, I think that
16 your practical observations are definitely
17 in order and something that we will explore,
18 and if you have got more detailed
19 suggestions, we would be happy to take them
20 seriously and take them into consideration.
21 As I said, I think Senator Dollinger
22 did make similar kinds of requests for
23 historical data in our meeting in Albany a
24 few weeks ago, and we are trying to do the
.53
1 research to make sure we have good technical
2 answers for the questions posed.
3 On the observation, with regard to --
4 MR. FLATEAU: Could I just ask a
5 question?
6 DR. HEDGES: Sure, John.
7 MR. FLATEAU: If I am interpreting
8 your comments correctly, you are saying --
9 is there a problem with transference of
10 voting. The voter tabulation district
11 geography --
12 DR. HEDGES: Yes.
13 MR. FLATEAU: -- cannot capture data,
14 electoral data --
15 DR. HEDGES: That is right.
16 MR. FLATEAU: -- going back that far.
17 DR. HEDGES: The election districts
18 changed quite a bit between 1992, 1993, 1994
19 and 1998. There is very little change
20 between 1996 and 2000, which is why we are
21 reasonably confident that we could do the
22 translations, but if we try to go further
23 back in history, and tie them to the 2000
24 Census, you have two different technical
.54
1 issues.
2 One is, what was really on the street
3 at the time? Is it the 2000 Census or the
4 1990 Census? When you are looking at the
5 1993 election, I think the technicians would
6 argue that perhaps you are better off tieing
7 it to the 1990 Census than the 2000 Census.
8 As a technical matter, it is hard to do the
9 2000 Census anyway, and relatively easier to
10 do the 1990 Census. So, we are trying to do
11 that research and come to a good technical
12 solution, and I think if we can come to a
13 solution that seems technically reasonable,
14 then we will make the information available
15 and we will use it ourselves, and I think
16 the position that the Assembly Majority has
17 taken is, if we are going to use it in our
18 own analysis, we would like it available to
19 the public. We are exploring that question
20 with the other parties. But I think that
21 everyone is headed in that direction, and
22 so, I do not think it is anything other than
23 the practical questions of what will the
24 experts tell us works and what doesn't. We
.55
1 do not want to use bad information. We want
2 to use good information that is relevant to
3 the question at hand, and I think your
4 observation about some of the particular
5 elections, the 1993 elections in New York
6 City, the 1994 Comptroller election, those
7 are important sources of information. We
8 would like to be able to use them. We want
9 to make sure we are using them properly, and
10 if we use them, we would like to make them
11 available, and I think we are headed in that
12 direction. I do not think we finished the
13 work.
14 With respect to the composition of the
15 Task Force, I am not going to take issue
16 with you, but I would make this observation,
17 and I think it is a particularly salient
18 observation. This Task Force is not making
19 a decision. This Task Force is making a
20 recommendation. The Legislature is making a
21 decision. If I look at the Legislature, I
22 look at the leadership in the Assembly. I
23 look at the Chairman that I work for.
24 MR. FLATEAU: Right.
.56
1 DR. HEDGES: The diversity that you
2 are seeking is there, and the Assembly is
3 not going to make a decision without
4 reflecting that diversity.
5 I am not going to speak for anybody
6 else, but I just have no hesitancy in making
7 that observation. Whether I look at the
8 leadership posts in the Assembly, whether I
9 look at the chairmanships in the Assembly,
10 whether I look at the individual rank and
11 file membership of the Assembly, there is
12 simply no question that the racial
13 diversity, the ethnic diversity, the
14 political diversity of the State is well-
15 reflected in the Assembly, and I am proud of
16 that, and I am proud to be making
17 recommendations to them, but I am mindful of
18 the fact that is what I am doing. I am
19 making a recommendation, and they are making
20 a decision, and I expect that that diversity
21 will be front and center in the decisions of
22 the Assembly. You know that and I know
23 that.
24 I am not going to disagree with you
.57
1 about your observations about the Task
2 Force. I am not trying to be controversial
3 here, but you know as well as I that a David
4 Gantt, who used to serve as the chair of
5 this committee, is going to be a voice and a
6 force in the decisions of the Assembly, as
7 it comes to redistricting.
8 A Denny Farrell, a Clarence Norman, a
9 former member Ramirez, a current member
10 Rivera, two Riveras actually, these are
11 forces in our decision-making process, and
12 they represent the diversity of the State,
13 as does Chris Ortloff from the North
14 Country.
15 As I said, I am pleased to be making
16 recommendations to them, and glad that they
17 are making the decision.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I have got one
19 question that I just throw out and invite
20 you to maybe think about it and send us a
21 letter. I do not think we have the time,
22 but it is a fascinating question, and I pose
23 it to both Dr. Hedges and yourself, and it
24 is this. Is it a better assessment of
.58
1 racial bloc voting patterns, to choose an
2 election in which the candidates were
3 racially polarized, or an election in which
4 the candidate or the issue was more generic?
5 In other words, in a situation where
6 people perceive themselves as being in one
7 group or another, and the candidates are
8 perceived as being champions of one group or
9 another, isn't it kind of a no-brainer to
10 expect people to go to their respective
11 corners and act accordingly, and does that
12 really tell us as much as if we choose an
13 election race in which the behavior of the
14 voters is more evident because of the
15 generic nature of the choice? I would like
16 to hear your response.
17 MR. FLATEAU: I think you raise a
18 methodological question, so that the answer
19 to that is, yes, you should look at both
20 types of elections. That is why I pointed
21 out that the McCall contest is actually on
22 one side of that ledger, and when you look
23 at Dinkins, for example, the two Dinkins-
24 Giuliani contests, they are on the other
.59
1 side of that ledger, that whole question of
2 racial bloc voting. So, you want to have
3 both kinds of elections to look at.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: So, it is the
5 range that tells you more than --
6 MR. FLATEAU: Sometimes the people
7 fool us all; right? They vote the way they
8 want, not the way social scientists and
9 politicians like to analyze their behavior.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: And it humbles
11 us all, doesn't it.
12 MR. FLATEAU: We should look at the
13 whole array.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: The other thing
15 I wanted to say, John, was, in terms of your
16 question about when people ought to submit
17 plans. I think a number of us heard the
18 Speaker and Assemblyman Parment, at a news
19 conference in Albany a couple of weeks ago,
20 at least I thought I heard them say that
21 they hoped a draft would be available before
22 the end of this year, which I took to mean
23 late November or, given the holidays, not
24 much later than the first of December. So,
.60
1 I would say to you and anybody else that is
2 thinking of doing plans, as a practical
3 matter, I would think the date would be
4 September 1st, because if you do not get a
5 plan on the table, if it doesn't, you know,
6 take its seat in the auditorium and say, I'm
7 here and I want to be considered, chances
8 are that it might not get considered, but
9 more importantly, it might not have time to
10 be a part of the process.
11 The way I look at these plans is, the
12 plans are speaking for themselves, and if
13 there are twenty plans out there, the plans,
14 in effect, are going to have a dialogue and
15 a debate on their own merits, and that is
16 going to carry the day more than what we say
17 about them, but if they are not out there --
18 you make a very eloquent statement here, but
19 it is not the equivalent of a plan on paper
20 that says, here is, you know, what we want
21 to do and let's go critique it.
22 MR. FLATEAU: That is six weeks.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I know.
24 MR. FLATEAU: Who knows? If I
.61
1 weren't at this hearing, I would not have
2 known that.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: John, do not
4 misconstrue what I am saying. That is just
5 my personal opinion. The earlier the
6 better.
7 MR. FLATEAU: I am just following. I
8 am trying to digest.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Get it out
10 there.
11 MR. FLATEAU: I will spread the word,
12 believe me.
13 DR. HEDGES: Let me join in on this a
14 little bit though, because you asked a
15 couple of other questions that I did not
16 respond to that I think I would like to.
17 You asked how complete and how
18 technically sound. Obviously, the more
19 complete and the more technically sound, the
20 easier it is to respond directly to the
21 recommendation that is being made.
22 MR. FLATEAU: Can a party just submit
23 one district?
24 DR. HEDGES: Absolutely.
.62
1 MR. FLATEAU: Would that be
2 considered?
3 DR. HEDGES: Absolutely, no question
4 about it, and if you want to use the history
5 of the Task Force as a way of getting at
6 some of those kind of questions -- and I
7 think it is relevant -- look back ten years.
8 In the Assembly, there were 150 or so plans
9 submitted, ranging from single district
10 plans to partial district plans to whole
11 geographic areas. All of them were looked
12 at. All of them were incorporated in the
13 record. All of them were submitted to the
14 Justice Department. All of them were
15 submitted to the Courts. There is simply no
16 question that if somebody gave us something
17 to look at, we did our best to look at it.
18 That having been said, I think Chris'
19 point is correct. The earlier the better.
20 The more time people have to work with it,
21 the more time people have to respond to it,
22 the more complete and comprehensive and
23 thoughtful the response can be. So,
24 certainly, the sooner the better.
.63
1 Is September 1st anything important?
2 No, not in my mind, but, gosh, if I got
3 something next week, I got more time to work
4 with it than if I get it next January.
5 We will be having conversations about
6 formal deadlines, but independent of that,
7 the sooner the better.
8 MR. FLATEAU: Could I ask another
9 question? Does the Task Force have a
10 preference in terms of plans drawn on census
11 track boundary or voter tabulation district
12 boundaries?
13 DR. HEDGES: Again, those are
14 conversations that we have not completed
15 ourselves, but that having been said, look
16 at the State Constitutional requirements for
17 State Legislative lines. They must be done
18 at the bloc level inside of cities. They
19 must be done at the town level in --
20 MR. FLATEAU: But bloc levels are co-
21 terminus with census tract --
22 DR. HEDGES: Tracts or groups of
23 blocs.
24 MR. FLATEAU: -- and VTD.
.64
1 DR. HEDGES: Right, but the State
2 Constitution says, bloc. Will we look at
3 tract level plans, absolutely. Will we look
4 at VTD level plans, absolutely. Will we
5 look at bloc level plans, absolutely.
6 You asked about the comprehensiveness
7 and the technical detail of it, I am making
8 a technical observation here. I am not
9 making a recommendation to you. As a
10 technical matter, when the State finally
11 does a plan for State Legislative lines
12 inside of cities, they have to be bloc on
13 border. Will we hold anybody's plan to that
14 standard, that is silly. That is a
15 technical standard. It is important. It is
16 a powerful one person/one vote requirement.
17 It is the most thoughtful one person/one
18 vote requirement in the Country,
19 unambiguously, and it is more than a hundred
20 years old in New York. It is not thirty-
21 five years old like everybody else's one
22 person/one vote standard, but that having
23 been said, we cannot expect people to comply
24 at that level. It is just not reasonable.
.65
1 But if somebody did it, would that be a
2 better plan, sure.
3 If you want to work at the tract level,
4 that is cool. If you want to work at the
5 VTD level, that is cool. Understand that if
6 we look at a plan that is at the VTD level
7 or at the tract level, at the end of the
8 day, if it is not bloc on border technically
9 sound, we could not accept it wholesale.
10 Could we accept the concept of it, could we
11 work with the ideas imbedded in it and make
12 the technical refinements, yes, we could,
13 and I think we would be happy to do that,
14 and I think our experience from ten years
15 ago is such that you know that we are
16 capable of doing that --
17 MR. FLATEAU: Right.
18 DR. HEDGES: -- and that, at least
19 from my own personal point of view, as I
20 talk with my colleagues here on the Task
21 Force, that is the recommendation I am
22 making.
23 MR. FLATEAU: Bloc on border is,
24 generally, only critical for the
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1 Congressional redistricting.
2 DR. HEDGES: No. The State
3 Constitution says, for State Assembly within
4 cities, they must be bloc on border
5 balanced. That is the Constitution --
6 MR. FLATEAU: Within a county.
7 DR. HEDGES: Within a city.
8 MR. FLATEAU: You have different
9 deviations within the five counties of New
10 York City.
11 DR. HEDGES: That is right, and
12 counties are recognized as legitimate reason
13 for varying from that, but, for example, in
14 the City of Albany, there is no --
15 MR. FLATEAU: We need -- we would
16 like, you know, a little short to-do list.
17 The Task Force needs to put it out there,
18 because I am up here having a technical
19 dialogue, and there is only -- only three of
20 the eight speakers showed up here. So that
21 means there is a whole world out there that
22 is not privy to this conversation. Now, I
23 know what I am going to do, but --
24 DR. HEDGES: John, let me follow
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1 through on that.
2 Part of the reason I am saying, and
3 part of the reason I think Assemblyman
4 Parment said at your conference, that these
5 technical standards, we cannot hold the
6 public responsible for complying with every
7 one of them, because nobody knows these
8 rules. These are powerful constraints on
9 the Task Force. They are powerful
10 constraints on the Legislature, but they are
11 not about the concept of, here's my
12 community, I would like it represented. We
13 have to be willing to accept, here's my
14 community, I would like it represented.
15 Here's a draft plan. We think it works
16 pretty well. Is it going to comply with
17 every rule, no, it's not. Is the Task Force
18 going to have to both understand that the
19 public isn't going to know every rule and be
20 tolerant of that, if they don't, they are
21 making a mistake. They have to be tolerant
22 of that.
23 My point to you is, you and I can have
24 that conversation, but once we have had that
.68
1 conversation, even though you've got thirty
2 years experience doing this stuff, the same
3 as I do, these are not rules that are easy
4 to understand. These are not rules that are
5 technically just there and everybody can
6 follow them. These are real powerful
7 constraints. We have to be tolerant, as
8 people make mistakes, that we accepted their
9 concept, reason with them sensibly, and then
10 made the technical corrections that need to
11 be made.
12 MR. FLATEAU: I would ask, though,
13 that the Task Force put out something like,
14 I don't know, a memorandum or a guideline, a
15 one-pager, with the minimum requirements --
16 DR. HEDGES: But what I am saying to
17 you, John --
18 MR. FLATEAU: -- that you or your
19 technical staff will have to work with in
20 order to seriously consider a submission.
21 DR. HEDGES: I am not going to try to
22 reject your request, but let me just say
23 this up front, before we get to the point of
24 having a one-pager.
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1 MR. FLATEAU: Or one paragraph.
2 DR. HEDGES: There has to be a
3 dialogue. There has to be reasonability on
4 our part or we are not engaged in this in a
5 serious way, and my point to you is, is not
6 that I do not think your suggestion is a
7 good one -- I think it is a fine one -- but
8 that no matter what we write down, no matter
9 what communications we have, at the end of
10 the day, if the Task Force is not tolerant
11 of mistakes made by the community as they
12 try to provide public input, then the Task
13 Force has missed its own point.
14 That having been said, you give us
15 something, you talk to us, we will take it
16 into account. We will do the best we can to
17 respond sensibly. We will try to consider
18 what it is that you have to say, and -- this
19 is not directed at you, this is directed to
20 the public -- anybody who submits anything,
21 we will take a look at it. We will do the
22 best we can with it. We will try to have a
23 dialogue with you about it.
24 Obviously, the more technically sound,
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1 the more comprehensive, the more thoughtful,
2 the better it is, but that does not mean
3 anything about somebody who has got an idea
4 about their community, who wants to convey
5 it to us, other than we will listen. We
6 have to.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think Dr.
8 Hedges was correct that that kind of
9 technical discussion is binding upon us, but
10 maybe beyond the grasp of many people in the
11 public, and we are going to have to deal
12 with that in some way.
13 John, my question deals with a bigger
14 issue that I think is at the heart of what
15 New York State is all about, and you
16 mentioned it, and that is the question of
17 the undercount.
18 You have said that there is evidence of
19 an undercount. Putting aside for a moment
20 whether we should look to get adjusted data
21 from the Census Bureau, whether we can,
22 whether we should -- putting that issue
23 aside for a second -- in order to have the
24 kind of exactitude that we would need in
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1 order to draw the districts premised on some
2 kind of undercount, using the smaller sizes,
3 shrinking the districts, we would need to
4 have a reasonably good idea of where that
5 undercount is.
6 You use the description of poor
7 neighbors, people of color. That, as you
8 know, and certainly in this city and in the
9 city I come from, is such a broad term, only
10 in the sense that we could not pinpoint
11 exactly where it is, to take it into
12 account, when we draw the district lines.
13 My question to you is (a) do you have
14 the capability to do that, to tell us where
15 the undercount might be present with some
16 specificity, and secondly, do you know
17 whether we could do that ourselves and how
18 we could go about doing that? Do you have a
19 recommendation to us, if you do not have the
20 capability, where we could try to figure out
21 where the undercount is?
22 MR. FLATEAU: Sure. I think there
23 are a number of social scientists. In fact,
24 Assemblyman Parment, you were at that
.72
1 conference. There were a number of social
2 scientists there that are working with the
3 2000 data, that sociologists and political
4 scientists I think could probably come up
5 with some estimates. In your universities,
6 right in your own areas, there are probably
7 experts that can work with that.
8 I saw a report that the -- I believe
9 the U.S. Census Monitoring Board released an
10 undercount report, down to county level, I
11 believe. It was down to county level. So
12 that you would be able to at least zero in
13 on, you know, Monroe County versus Kings
14 County or Richmond County, where we are now.
15 The percentage undercount estimate, you
16 know, in your area would be a very different
17 number.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right, but my
19 question is, given the exactitude that we
20 have to have, we would not -- let's take
21 Kings County, for example. We would need to
22 know where in Kings County that undercount
23 occurs.
24 MR. FLATEAU: Yes.
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1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just the notion
2 that there is a statistical study that says
3 Kings County is undercounted by 4% or 5% or
4 6% --
5 MR. FLATEAU: Well, I was just
6 indicating that as a base line, to let you
7 know that there is already undercount data
8 released by official Federal bodies, and
9 then the social scientists can massage that
10 information and others and the census data
11 itself and work with local planning offices,
12 for example. Every county has one, every
13 city has one, and I am sure they could come
14 up with the kind of precise data down to
15 probably tract level, in most instances,
16 that I believe you are saying you need to
17 get your hands on.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Given that
19 fact, would it be your recommendation that
20 at some point it would be in the best
21 interest of this commission's or this Task
22 Force's trying to deal with the issue of the
23 undercount, that we should have a hearing
24 that would be devoted solely to the
.74
1 undercount issue, and we would bring in a
2 type of sociological demographic experts,
3 and my assumption is that that is not
4 something that can -- how do I say this --
5 we need to give people time to massage that
6 data or work that data. To do it in the
7 next month, may not make a lot of sense, but
8 to do it sometime in October or November
9 might. Is that a fair --
10 MR. FLATEAU: Yes. I think that is
11 quite doable.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But -- I just
13 want to be clear. If we are going to try to
14 deal with the notion that New York, given
15 its history, has been undercounted, and that
16 we have some evidence that an undercount may
17 exist now, is it your judgment that it is
18 incumbent upon us to go out and try to
19 figure out where that specifically is?
20 MR. FLATEAU: Yes, I think it is, and
21 do not forget, it is not just a racial
22 dimension. It is a geographic dimension.
23 Most of your Upstate cities in New York are
24 down in population, and I think part of that
.75
1 decline is probably due to an undercount.
2 So, I think probably every major
3 municipality around this State has a vested
4 interest in digging into this issue, and I
5 am saying a combination of their local --
6 usually it is the local planning officials,
7 social scientists and census officials, and
8 the data that they are putting out, I think
9 you could fairly quickly -- do not forget
10 the technology today is light years ahead of
11 where it was ten years ago. So, I do not
12 think it is unreasonable that in thirty to
13 forty-five days you could have a fairly
14 substantial area analysis that addresses
15 that question. And I also agree with your
16 recommendation that a way to pull this
17 particular set of experts is maybe to do a
18 special meeting or hearing just on that
19 topic, and you will get those social
20 scientists at the table. I work with a
21 number of them right here in the City, who I
22 think could help you get to the heart of
23 that question.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. I think
.76
1 that is certainly something I would like to
2 explore in the future.
3 Let me just add one other thing. The
4 reason why there has been a lot of talk
5 about the extent of the database going back
6 to 1996, and whether we ought to go back
7 further, I would just tell you that one of
8 the things that drives me to the conclusion
9 that we need broader data is that
10 reapportionment itself changes the political
11 landscape. As you well know, certainly in
12 the last thirty years in this State, it has
13 created new opportunities for new voices in
14 New York. Because of the impact of the
15 Voting Rights Act, it has created what some
16 may have thought fifty years ago was unheard
17 of, that is, primaries involving not only
18 African-Americans paired against one
19 another, but African-Americans paired
20 against Puerto Ricans, Caribbeans, Whites.
21 You name the --
22 MR. FLATEAU: And African-American
23 Republican insurgents trying to knock off
24 White incumbent Democrats in most unlikely
.77
1 of places. Yes, all of that.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: All of those
3 things.
4 MR. FLATEAU: Yes.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It seems to me,
6 before we draw or as we draw conclusions
7 about political cohesive and political
8 voting patterns, the post-reapportionment
9 years, the years immediately following
10 reapportionment, 1992, 1993, 1994, as
11 candidates aspire to new seats, or seek to
12 fill old seats, or incumbents are paired
13 against one another, and when those who lose
14 those opportunities seek office elsewhere by
15 running -- those denied a seat in the
16 Assembly or the Senate, jump into the City
17 Council races -- those can be critical,
18 because reapportionment does have the impact
19 of reshuffling the political deck, and that
20 is why I think that the data from the early
21 and mid-90's becomes critically important to
22 evaluate it, and I would -- I mean, I go
23 back, I guess all politics is local. It
24 would be fascinating to apply many of these
.78
1 principles to the Mayoral primary in the
2 City of Rochester in 1993, in which there
3 were White, African-American and Puerto
4 Rican candidates, and the decided underdog
5 three weeks before has been the Mayor for
6 the last ten years. So, I think all of that
7 suggests -- and I understand the technical
8 problems that Dr. Hedges has referred to,
9 but if what we really want is a picture of
10 what New Yorkers -- how New Yorkers vote,
11 how they think and to what extent
12 reapportionment will impact them, I think we
13 need a decade's worth of data to do it.
14 MR. FLATEAU: I agree.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you,
16 John.
17 MR. FLATEAU: Thank you.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Alec Brook-
19 Krasny.
20 MR. BROOK-KRASNY: My name is Alec
21 Brook-Krasny, and I had the privilege last
22 year to be the first Russian in New York in
23 running for the political office. I've been
24 knocked off the ballot, but I received
.79
1 fifteen hundred write-ins that I'm proud of,
2 and I am here to express my opinion about
3 facts that I will try to extend to you
4 today, and rumors that are circulating in
5 our community.
6 I will be speaking in regards to 46th
7 Assembly District, which is formed by
8 neighborhoods of Brighton Beach, Luna Park,
9 Warbasse Development, Trump Village, Beach
10 Haven, Coney Island, Seagate, Bay Ridge and
11 Dyker Heights.
12 It is a very diverse district, but one
13 of the ethnic groups in the area has been
14 growing tremendously in the past fifteen
15 years. That group is Russian-American
16 ethnic group.
17 The human spirit of Russian-Americans
18 has transformed out neighborhoods, and I am
19 talking not only about Brighton Beach but
20 all neighborhoods nearby.
21 I am proud of my community. I think we
22 have done a wonderful and very speedy job
23 reaching the middle class in America. We
24 have top doctors, lawyers, computer experts,
.80
1 business leaders.
2 America has been great for us. There
3 is one thing that we have not yet achieved
4 in this Country, and that is political
5 office.
6 I am proud to be one of the people who
7 has been involved in creating some changes
8 in my community in those regards. Within a
9 short period of time, we registered just
10 thousands of people, and we have prepared
11 them for exercising one of the main rights,
12 the right to vote. We changed our
13 community. Russian-American people want to
14 vote, and elect their own representatives in
15 election offices. We are about to do that,
16 but we are very concerned about the process
17 of redistricting.
18 The rumors that the incumbent, who is
19 not getting very much along with Russian-
20 American community, is trying to change the
21 borders of 46th Assembly District in a
22 certain way, so the Russian-American
23 community will be broke up in pieces and
24 lose the opportunity to elect their own
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1 representatives.
2 You have a community both a quarter of
3 a million people in Brooklyn alone, but
4 120,000 of them live in South Brooklyn.
5 This Task Force is meeting with
6 different communities, and I think it would
7 be very appropriate if you meet the Russian
8 community in South Brooklyn.
9 All we want, just leave borders of 46th
10 as it is, so we are going to be able to
11 elect our own representatives.
12 I know you have a very difficult job,
13 this Task Force. Just make it in 46th and
14 where border says it is.
15 This Country has been great to us, and
16 please give us the opportunity to do
17 something big and important in return for
18 that.
19 Thank you very much.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Could you give
21 us more specific information about where the
22 Russian community is concentrated? You
23 mentioned several neighborhoods, but could
24 you put it in terms of major streets or
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1 boulevards?
2 MR. BROOK-KRASNY: I wouldn't be able
3 to do it in regards to streets and
4 boulevards, but Russian-Americans are
5 everywhere in Brooklyn now, and we are
6 talking about Brighton Beach, Coney Island,
7 Boro Park, Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, Dyker
8 Heights, Far Rockaway, Starrett City, and
9 some other areas. It is a huge community in
10 Brooklyn.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: But do you
12 basically feel that the 46th Assembly
13 District, as currently constituted,
14 accurately reflects the opportunity for
15 Russian community residents to elect a
16 person of their choosing?
17 MR. BROOK-KRASNY: Absolutely, sir,
18 yes. And the reason on Staten Island there
19 are rumors circulating in the community that
20 the incumbent is trying to create this Task
21 Force to either cut up 46th or add up a huge
22 part of Staten Island. That is the reason I
23 am on Staten Island today.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Would the
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1 Russian community be also prominent in Dyker
2 Heights/Bay Ridge?
3 MR. BROOK-KRASNY: In Bay Ridge, yes.
4 In Dyker Heights, we don't have a huge
5 amount of people, but we do have Russian-
6 Americans living in Dyker Heights, yes, sir.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
8 MR. BROOK-KRASNY: Thank you.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Senator.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one
11 question. What is your estimate, or maybe
12 you know, of the population of
13 Russian-Americans in this portion of
14 Brooklyn, the southwest portion of Brooklyn?
15 MR. BROOK-KRASNY: Senator, are you
16 talking about 46th District or the whole
17 area of South Brooklyn?
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I am trying to
19 find out, outside the 46th District,
20 including all the other neighborhoods
21 surrounding it, what would by your best
22 estimate of the population of Russian-
23 Americans in this neck of Brooklyn?
24 MR. BROOK-KRASNY: We are estimating
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1 200,000 people.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would just add
3 a private thought. It is so wonderful to
4 hear the language of democracy spoken in New
5 York by someone with a Russian accent.
6 MR. BROOK-KRASNY: Thank you. Thank
7 you very much for the opportunity to speak
8 today. Thank you.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Any questions?
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
12 Robert Helbock.
13 MR. HELBOCK: Good morning, Mr.
14 Chairman, members of the commission. My
15 name is Bob Helbock, and I stand before you
16 today as a native Staten Islander, as a
17 former candidate for the 59th Assembly
18 District, and for the past years, the past
19 twelve years, as the Counsel to State
20 Senator John Marchi.
21 While I am not appearing here today to
22 testify in his behalf, I do know his
23 perspective as far as how he considers the
24 redistricting in Staten Island, and I would
.85
1 like to just make a couple of quick points
2 to you today, if I may.
3 Staten Island is a unique county, in
4 that in many ways we share many of the same
5 similarities as Nassau County or Westchester
6 County, rather than the other four boroughs
7 in the City of New York.
8 We have similar types of housing stock,
9 one or two-family houses. We have smaller
10 type businesses here, employees under a
11 hundred people, versus the larger boroughs
12 which have more larger employers, and more
13 multiple dwellings than Staten Island would
14 have.
15 We have two Island-wide newspapers that
16 service Staten Island alone. One, a daily,
17 the "Staten Island Advance," and the other
18 being a weekly newspaper, the "Staten Island
19 Register."
20 We also have one Community School Board
21 District and one Congressional District that
22 serves the entire borough of Staten Island.
23 This differs substantially with the other
24 boroughs within the City of New York, which
.86
1 have numerous school districts and numerous
2 Congressional districts.
3 If you ask any Manhattanite where they
4 may live, and they will refer to you, they
5 will say, well, I live in Chelsea, I live in
6 Stuyvesant Town, I live in the upper-west
7 side. You ask someone from Richmond County
8 where they live, they say, well, I live on
9 Staten Island. We are a unique community,
10 in fact, that we identify ourselves as
11 Staten Islanders more than we do from a
12 specific neighborhood.
13 However, that being said, we are still
14 made up of small towns that identify
15 themselves within a particular geographic
16 area, and it would be important, and I
17 reiterate to you what others have said, to
18 make sure that that neighborhood integrity
19 stays in tact.
20 The two most important points which I
21 would like to stress to you would be, number
22 one, do not create a Mason/Dixon line to
23 divide Staten Island, and number two, keep
24 any partial district that may be created
.87
1 connected to Brooklyn.
2 First of all, I must compliment this
3 commission for your efforts that were made
4 ten years ago when redistricting Staten
5 Island. Although you found it necessary to
6 break up some communities along the shores
7 of Staten Island, for example, New Dorp and
8 Dongan Hills and Tompkinsville, to create
9 the Senate District on Staten Island, you
10 also were able to keep communities like
11 Stapleton and St. George basically in tact,
12 as well as other areas like Rosebank, along
13 the borders of Staten Island.
14 I ask that rather than reinventing the
15 wheel in this redistricting effort, you
16 simply improve upon the existing lines,
17 while reuniting communities previously
18 divided, whenever possible.
19 The most important perspective that
20 Senator Marchi would insist upon, and which
21 I am trying to impress upon you today, is
22 that there should not be a North/South
23 division of either any Assembly district or
24 Senate district on Staten Island.
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1 Staten Island representatives have gone
2 to great pains through the years to avoid
3 creating this kind of dichotomy that would
4 divide Staten Island on basic issues. This
5 is the greatest threat to the unique quality
6 of Staten Island.
7 The natural inclination may be to draw
8 lines that might use, for example, the
9 Staten Island Expressway as a boundary.
10 However, that might do more harm than good,
11 by dividing communities that share
12 commonality. For example, the communities
13 of Mariner's Harbor and Bulls Head share
14 many of the same quality of life issues.
15 For example, there is noise and traffic
16 congestion and airplane noise. They shop in
17 the same areas. They use the same postal
18 service. They use the same public
19 transportation. That is not the same or not
20 true on the other side of the Staten Island
21 Expressway, closer towards the bridge, where
22 there are different commonalities of
23 interest in those areas.
24 Those areas share the same schools.
.89
1 They share the same transportation problems,
2 which, if you would be familiar with the
3 Staten Island newspapers, are becoming more
4 and more an issue within both the State
5 Legislature as well as locally.
6 This would also mean that the smallest
7 district of both the Assembly and Senate
8 seats would have to connect to another
9 county. It is my contention that this
10 district should continue to connect to
11 Brooklyn, rather than Manhattan. There is a
12 natural connection between the two
13 communities of Staten Island and Brooklyn.
14 They share the Verrazano Bridge. They share
15 similar concerns in both communities, and
16 they have similar characteristics.
17 On the other hand, it would be an
18 insult to Staten Island to be rearranged and
19 sent back to Manhattan.
20 Unfortunately, approximately twenty
21 years ago, Staten Island was represented by
22 a very able State Senator, Senator Martin
23 Connor, but he had the unique position of
24 representing three boroughs at the same
.90
1 time. It would be my contention that that
2 is a disadvantage to all three boroughs and
3 Staten Island was, unfortunately, lost in
4 that shuffle.
5 Now, while Senator Marchi, for years,
6 has taken it upon himself to consider
7 himself representing the entire Staten
8 Island, as our population has grown, this
9 would become more and more difficult. We
10 need a representative on Staten Island who
11 is concerned with Staten Island issues, and
12 especially the type of issues that share
13 commonality with other communities that they
14 represent.
15 I do not think that you can compare
16 downtown St. George, our commercial district
17 here on Staten Island, with any part of
18 lower Manhattan. For example, if you would
19 just look at the structures and the
20 facilities, the largest commercial building
21 in St. George is a nine-story building,
22 compared to the skyscrapers that we all see
23 in lower Manhattan.
24 I think it would be more appropriate to
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1 keep the communities the same as they are
2 now in the Councilmatic districts, the
3 Congressional districts that share the
4 representation between Bay Ridge and Staten
5 Island.
6 I would just like to conclude with you
7 by saying that the good work that you have
8 done ten years ago has essentially lead to
9 very little controversy here on Staten
10 Island. We have been ably represented by
11 Senator Vincent Gentile, as well as Senator
12 Marchi, who has represented us for the past
13 forty-six years, and hopefully will continue
14 to do so.
15 In considering these lines, I think
16 when you have a good thing, don't mess with
17 it. I would suggest that maybe what you
18 just need to do is tweak it a little bit,
19 and ask you to take that into consideration
20 as you consider these lines.
21 Thank you very much.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Robert McFeely.
.92
1 MR. MCFEELY: Senator Skelos,
2 Assemblyman Parment, distinguished members
3 of the panel, my name is Robert J. McFeely.
4 I am a member of the Voter's Assistance
5 Commission. I am also the Secretary of the
6 Staten Island Republican Party, and I am the
7 MIS Director for Borough Hall.
8 As a Commissioner of VAC, my
9 responsibilities are to promote voter
10 registration and increase participation in
11 the voting process. Nothing is more
12 detrimental to voter participation than a
13 feeling of isolation from a person
14 representing you.
15 Staten Islanders are unique that they
16 feel separated from the rest of the City and
17 State by the Raritan Bay and Hudson River.
18 We are on an island with more physical
19 connections to New Jersey than to any other
20 part of New York City. Hence, that we
21 sometimes feel ignored and neglected by our
22 New York brethren. Because of this, this
23 commission must start drawing the lines from
24 Tottenville to the Peace Bridge, not the
.93
1 other way around. We are a proud community,
2 not the last piece of cake for guests to
3 quibble over.
4 As for connecting our new seats to
5 another borough, I respectfully request the
6 committee to consider a few facts. Staten
7 Island has the most cars per household than
8 in any other borough of New York City, while
9 Manhattanites travel predominantly by
10 subway.
11 Travel time from Staten Island to
12 Manhattan can take up to one hour by ferry
13 and double that by car. In comparison,
14 travel to South Brooklyn can take as little
15 as ten minutes across the Verrazano-Narrows
16 Bridge. During rush hour, it can extend to
17 a half hour, one-fourth of the time it takes
18 to get to Manhattan.
19 Staten Island is the least densely
20 populated of the five boroughs, and we have
21 the most park land per square acre. Linking
22 us to Manhattan would not make sense. It is
23 just the opposite in population density and
24 neighborhood character.
.94
1 As a father of three children, I visit
2 my grandmother, whom my children call Nonna,
3 every Sunday for family dinner. My wife's
4 grandmother lives in Bay Ridge at the ripe
5 age of 92. I am not the exception. In
6 fact, I may be the rule in family tie
7 demographics. As such, the most sensible
8 and logical conclusion this panel can come
9 to into any link of all our seats, is the
10 South Brooklyn area, where many Staten
11 Islanders have a true connection.
12 I respectfully submit my contribution.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
14 Good to see you again.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just want to
16 make one thing, as a former president said,
17 perfectly clear. I won't vote for any plan
18 in which we reapportion Staten Island with
19 New Jersey. We fought over Ellis Island.
20 We fought the battle of Staten Island. It's
21 ours. We are not going to give it back, so,
22 rest assured.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Mary Riley.
24 Did I pronounce the name correctly?
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1 MS. RILEY: Yes. Good morning. I am
2 here to read a statement for County
3 Chairwoman of the Republican Party, Leticia
4 Remauro.
5 Assemblyman Parment, distinguished
6 members of the committee and my fellow
7 Staten Islanders, my name is Leticia
8 Remauro, and I am the Richmond County
9 Republican Chairwoman.
10 Staten Island is a unique community.
11 Only a short ferry ride away from the
12 borough we refer to as "the city," but
13 others call Manhattan. Staten Island is a
14 neighborhood consisting of single-family
15 homes, parks and tree-lined streets. We are
16 a community united, and for years we have
17 struggled to remain that way. So determined
18 are we to remain united, that some years
19 back when we were presented with an option
20 to divide our school district, Staten
21 Islanders refused, opting instead to keep
22 our children under one banner and one
23 administration that would deliver consistent
24 service.
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1 In fact, our resolve to remain united
2 is so strong, you may have heard that a few
3 years back we voted to secede from New York
4 City.
5 As you may have guessed, I am not a
6 proponent for slicing-up Staten Island. I
7 have always believed that constituents are
8 best served when their elected officials
9 live among them, shop where they shop, eat
10 in the same restaurants, and access the same
11 government services. At the same time, I am
12 a realist, and I recognize that our
13 neighborhood is growing, as we welcome new
14 families each and every day. In
15 representative government, growth means the
16 addition of new election districts, and with
17 that, new officials to fill them. Alas,
18 such is the case in Staten Island today.
19 I am well aware that the panel has no
20 choice but to divide our community, and I am
21 here today to ask you to be sensitive to the
22 needs of those you are sending away.
23 Staten Island should not be treated as
24 a pie that can be sliced down the middle or
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1 up the sides. There should be no
2 North/South divisions for the sake of
3 expediency or political desire. Instead, we
4 should consider our community neighborhood
5 by neighborhood, keeping them whole where we
6 can ensure that those that must be separated
7 are not being sent to a place in the city
8 unlike the place that they live.
9 Wherever possible, we must keep our
10 bucolic areas together, letting their
11 Senate, Assembly and Congressional districts
12 run along the lines of familiar shopping
13 clusters, or "towns" as we call them. We
14 must keep communities of interest together,
15 so that we can have a fair and consistent
16 representation.
17 And when connecting us to another
18 borough, I beseech you to recognize that the
19 borough most like our own, and indeed one
20 many Islanders have a "blood' connection to,
21 is the borough of Brooklyn. For years, we
22 have shared both our congressional and
23 council district with the Bay Ridge, Dyker
24 Heights and Bensonhurst areas of Brooklyn.
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1 Though these areas are not exactly the same
2 as the towns of Staten Island, they could be
3 distant cousins to certain areas in our
4 borough, consisting of small apartment
5 buildings and clusters of semi-attached
6 homes and townhouses. For the sake of our
7 constituents, I urge you to keep necessary
8 connections, consistent to past practices,
9 and let any new Assembly seat join our other
10 in Kings County.
11 Thank you for your attention and
12 consideration. Respectfully submitted by
13 Leticia Remauro.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you. We
15 will go back to the beginning. Mr. Joseph
16 Pagan. Belinda Dixon. Earlene Bethel.
17 That completes the list of people who
18 have indicated an interest to speak. Are
19 there others that would wish to speak?
20 Hearing none, I would move --
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will move to
22 adjourn, Mr. Chair.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: So moved.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I second it.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Second it.
2 Adjourned.
3 Thank you.
4 (Time noted: 11:50 a.m.)
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