1 LEGISLATIVE TASK FORCE
2 ON DEMOGRAPHIC RESEARCH
3 AND REAPPORTIONMENT
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5 -------------------------------------------------------
6
7 A Public Hearing on Congressional
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9 and State Legislative Redistricting
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11 -------------------------------------------------------
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13 LOCATION: Onondaga County Legislative Chambers
14 Onondaga County Courthouse
15 401 Montgomery Street
16 Syracuse, New York
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18 DATE: May 3rd, 2001 -- 11:00 a.m. Until 2:00
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Public Hearing - Legislative Task Force
1 TASK FORCE COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
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3 Senator Dean G. Skelos, Co-Chairman
4 Assemblyman William L. Parment, Co-Chairman
5 Senator Richard A. Dollinger, Member
6 Assemblyman Chris Ortloff, Member
7 Vincent P. Bruy, Member
8 Roman B. Hedges, Member
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10 Debra A. Levine, Co-Executive Director
11 Lewis M. Hoppe, Co-Executive Director
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Public Hearing - Legislative Task Force
1 PROCEEDINGS, MAY 3RD, 2001 -- 11:00 AM
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3 SENATOR SKELOS: Can I have your
4 attention please? Good morning and welcome to
5 the Legislative Task Force on Demographic
6 Research and Reapportionment.
7 This is the first of 11 public hearings
8 around New York State. My name is State
9 Senator Dean Skelos. I'm the Co-Chair of the
10 task force. I served as task force Co-Chair
11 ten years ago and remember being in this
12 beautiful, beautiful legislative chamber.
13 I first want to acknowledge the fact that
14 two of my colleagues from the Senate are here.
15 Senator Nancy Larraine Hoffmann and I know
16 that Senator John DeFrancisco was here. I
17 think he may have gone outside, but he'll be
18 back.
19 And with me today are my fellow task
20 force members Co-Chair Assemblyman William
21 Parment, Senator Richard Dollinger,
22 Assemblyman Chris Ortloff, Vincent Bruy and
23 Roman Hedges.
24 The purpose of these hearings is to
25 obtain input from you, the general public, on
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Public Hearing - Legislative Task Force
1 the wide range of issues impacting our state's
2 congressional process, State Senate and State
3 Assembly district boundaries. In doing so,
4 the task force must meet requirements of
5 federal and state laws and regulations as well
6 as numerous court decisions.
7 The goal of this reapportionment process
8 is to provide fair and effective
9 representation for all of the citizens of our
10 great state. These hearings are an important
11 step towards providing such representation. I
12 thank you all for being here.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Yes, thank you,
14 Senator, for your opening remarks. I am Bill
15 Parment, Member of the New York State Assembly
16 and Co-Chair of this task force with Senator
17 Skelos and I think he has adequately summed up
18 the purposes of our being here. We look
19 forward to hearing from you, the public, and
20 groups who are interested in the outcome of
21 this process. We believe that the input of the
22 public is very important to make this process
23 successful and so with that I would indicate
24 my welcome as well.
25 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Dollinger?
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Public Hearing - Legislative Task Force
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, Senator
2 Skelos and welcome everyone. It's great to be
3 here in Syracuse. I'll be coming back in a
4 couple of weeks for my daughter's graduation
5 from Syracuse. So it's good to be here.
6 This is my first time on the
7 Reapportionment Task Force. I want to thank
8 Co-Chairs Assemblyman Parment and Senator
9 Skelos for including me in this process. I do,
10 however, think that there are at least a
11 couple things that we should do preliminarily.
12 This is the first meeting of the commission
13 this year since the census data has come from
14 the federal government and I think that at
15 least as a newcomer to the commission I think
16 we need to look to the rules of the
17 commission; how we are going to take written
18 testimony, the circumstances under which
19 people can provide that testimony without
20 necessarily appearing here; how we are going
21 to mark documents that are submitted to us,
22 potential maps; the issue of access to the
23 data that the commission has with respect to
24 population and other factors that are
25 pertinent in the redistricting process. I
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1 think we need do that as a commission too. I'm
2 not sure we have to do it today before we
3 begin to take the testimony from the people in
4 this community, but I do think that the
5 commission needs to meet as a group in Albany
6 and resolve a number of the threshold issues
7 as we begin this process. So, my hope is that
8 we have such a meeting in the near future and
9 we can establish the ground rules, the taking
10 of testimony through means other than
11 appearance before the commission; how we are
12 going to identify maps or other items; whether
13 we'll have access through the website to that
14 kind of data. It seems to me that those are
15 important threshold considerations that we
16 have to review at some time in greater detail
17 in the future. I welcome the opportunity to
18 serve. I look forward to working with my
19 colleagues and I also hope that we'll get
20 those threshold issues resolved in the near
21 future.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I'd like to also
23 take note of the presence here of Assemblyman
24 Hal Brown and also of a former Assemblyman Don
25 Davidson. Assemblywoman Joan Christensen has
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1 indicated she will be coming later and we can
2 look forward to seeing her.
3 I would also draw the public's attention
4 to the opportunity we have in the year
5 2001-2002. With the advent of high capacity
6 personal computers and new software for the
7 first time in the history of this nation,
8 average citizens and average groups of
9 citizens have the wherewithal at low cost to
10 truly participate in the redistricting
11 process. And as we all know on the task
12 force, we expect a number of them to do so.
13 Given that, however, we also must realize with
14 these opportunities come additional
15 challenges. If people can approximate,
16 replicate, the line drawing process on their
17 own stand-alone computers, the question then
18 becomes how can they and their software
19 communicate with the task force and its maps.
20 The question I would like to put before
21 the task force is in what way will we
22 accommodate the realities of 21st Century
23 technology? Simple but very important
24 questions, such as will our computers be able
25 to, in a manner of speaking, talk to anybody
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1 else's computer? Will a citizens advocate
2 group that wants to draw plans be able to take
3 our data and import them into our computer
4 seemlessly? The technology exists to do that.
5 Will we as a task force provide that?
6 In summary, to restate my concern, my
7 colleagues, is we have come a long way with
8 open government laws in the last 30 years. The
9 sunshine now shines in to all of our
10 legislative and governmental processes. Today
11 we are at the threshold of an opportunity to
12 extend open meetings, open government, to the
13 digital age. If we don't act, however, we run
14 the risk of effectively closing the doors
15 again and doing redistricting in a way that
16 the average person cannot participate in. The
17 challenge is before us. I hope we rise to the
18 occasion. Thank you.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: You know, it
20 occurred to me that we should for the present
21 public indicate that this task force is a
22 bicameral, bipartisan task force and that both
23 the Senate and the Assembly are equally
24 represented and the task force is comprised of
25 members of both major political parties in
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1 affiliation, and we will, when we are complete
2 with this process, have to submit to both
3 houses of the State Legislature a single bill
4 for the Assembly and Senate seats which must
5 be passed by both houses of the Legislature
6 and signed into law by the Governor. And we'll
7 have a single bill that incorporates the
8 congressional redistricting plan which must be
9 passed by both houses of the Legislature and
10 also be submitted to the Governor for
11 signature. I wanted to just clarify that for
12 the public and press. That will be, obviously,
13 what our process will produce.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Okay. Our first
15 speaker has actually submitted testimony,
16 which will be part of the record. Shawn Hogan
17 who is the Mayor of Hornell. So, we have his
18 testimony and we'll give it to the
19 stenographer.
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21 HON. SHAWN D. HOGAN, Mayor, City of
22 Hornell, New York:
23 I would like to thank the committee for
24 this opportunity to be heard in regards to
25 saving the 31st Congressional District. The
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1 31st Congressional District is probably the
2 most unique of any in the State of New York.
3 This District covers three-quarters of the
4 Southern Tier of New York, which covers the
5 only counties in New York State that are
6 included in the Appalachian Regional
7 Commission. This very fact highlights the
8 common interests shared by the majority of
9 counties that are included in the District.
10 In 1850 the Erie Railroad extended its
11 main line [The High and Wide] through the
12 region known as the Southern Tier, linking all
13 the counties in the 31st forever with the
14 railroad industry. The economic conditions of
15 the District have been tied together by this
16 bond ever since. Currently, a major issue is
17 to protect and enhance rail service throughout
18 the 31st. I-86 [State Route 17] also ties and
19 binds the 31st Congressional District together
20 as one.
21 The rural nature of the 31st District is
22 important and should be recognized by the
23 committee. If, by chance, this District is
24 broken up I can only envision much of the
25 District being tied with urban areas such as
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1 Buffalo and Rochester. This would greatly
2 diminish our rural voice and our priorities
3 would be lost to more urban related issues.
4 The 31st District is unique in the sense that
5 it is one of the largest landmass districts in
6 the State, which is sparsely populated, but it
7 is also unique as our interests in this vast
8 geographic district are so common in nature.
9 The citizens of this District share a bond and
10 a vision of the future that includes enhanced
11 transportation systems, economic development
12 projects, improved education delivery systems
13 and the protection of our rural character and
14 environment.
15 This is not a partisan issue; this is not
16 about Republican or Democrat; this is about
17 doing the right thing. It is a common sense
18 issue. This District is so unique it must be
19 preserved.
20 Thank you again for this opportunity.
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22 SENATOR SKELOS: Next is Garry
23 VanGorder, Metropolitan Development
24 Association, Syracuse.
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1 MR. GARRY VAN GORDER, Metropolitan
2 Development Association: Thank you very
3 much for the opportunity to present testimony
4 at today's hearing on legislative
5 redistricting in Central New York.
6 Representing the business leadership in
7 Cortland, Onondaga, Madison, Cayuga and Oswego
8 counties, the Metropolitan Development
9 Association is naturally concerned about the
10 potential impact that state and federal
11 redistricting could have on our region.
12 The MDA is a professional, not-for-profit
13 planning, research and development
14 organization and it is Central New York's
15 principal economic development and leadership
16 organization which serves as the primary
17 private sector vehicle for the implementation
18 of key development projects. Many of the
19 projects with which we have been involved over
20 the years, from the construction of the
21 Carrier Dome to the recent launch of the New
22 York Indoor Environmental Quality Center and
23 the two and a half million dollar Workforce
24 Development Initiative to the staffing of the
25 New York State Urban Council, have been a
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1 direct result of our effective partnerships
2 with state, local and federal representatives
3 from both sides of the aisle.
4 We are particularly appreciative of the
5 contributions of the three people who are here
6 today: Senators DeFrancisco, Hoffmann and
7 Assemblyman Hal Brown.
8 We also believe that it is critical that
9 our congressional seat in the 25th District
10 remain intact. Our representative there is Jim
11 Walsh. He's a senior member and Chair of the
12 House Appropriations Subcommittee on Veterans
13 Affairs, Housing and Urban Development and
14 Independent Agencies. Overseeing the budgets
15 of the VA, HUD, NASA, and the Environmental
16 Protection Agency, Congressman Walsh has been
17 instrumental in securing funding for major
18 projects and initiatives in the district --
19 projects and initiatives that create jobs and
20 improve our quality of life.
21 I'll just list a few of those, briefly:
22 The designation of the Erie Canal as a
23 National Heritage Corridor.
24 The ongoing clean-up of Onodnaga Lake and
25 continuing initiatives in the Finger Lakes
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1 watersheds around the drinking water sources
2 of Skaneateles, Otisco and Owasco Lakes.
3 The Syracuse Neighborhood Initiative,
4 which brought ten million dollars to help
5 revitalize city neighborhoods.
6 The clean-up of dilapidated buildings at
7 Hancock Airpark, helping to transform an old
8 air base into one of the region's top
9 industrial parks.
10 The retention and expansion projects
11 involving such major regional employers as New
12 Process Gear and Buckbee Mears, Inc.
13 And EPA funding for indoor environmental
14 quality center research that will assess and
15 mitigate indoor air quality problems in urban
16 environments.
17 Without question, Congressman Walsh's
18 standing and influence is important not only
19 to Central new York, but to the whole of New
20 York State.
21 It is also important, we believe, that
22 Cortland, Onondaga and Cayuga counties, along
23 with their urban centers, are kept in the same
24 congressional district. All are in the same
25 Metropolitan Statistical Area, and we benefit
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1 from a unified regional economy, media market
2 and work force.
3 Additionally, we know that a unified
4 congressional district eliminates public
5 confusion over its representative and provides
6 the populace with a consistency that
7 encourages them to ask questions and seek
8 answers from the federal government. Examples
9 of what we must avoid can be found just west
10 of here, in Auburn, a city of 37,000 people
11 represented by three members of Congress.
12 Central New York's ability to grow and to
13 prosper in the years to come will continue to
14 depend on its collaboratively minded,
15 visionary delegates in Albany and Washington,
16 D.C. We acknowledge the importance and the
17 difficulty of the task force assignment, but
18 at the same time, we trust that you'll
19 recognize that the people of Central New York
20 will be best served in legislative districts
21 as they are configured today. Thank you very
22 much for your hearing the testimony.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Before you
24 leave, and this may be advisable for other
25 members who testify as well, we have state
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1 constitutional and statutory standards for
2 deciding a number of factors including
3 communities of interest, and I understand your
4 testimony that the inclusion of Cortland and
5 the counties that run all the way up to Lake
6 Ontario in this congressional district fit
7 that definition of communities of interest.
8 My only question -- and again if people can
9 address this, perhaps laterally, it doesn't
10 take a lot of time, and this district runs
11 largely north and south -- would it make
12 better sense for it to run more east and west,
13 Cayuga County, Auburn, being divided? Is the
14 community of interest sort of wrapping the
15 Thruway, for want of a better term, or do you
16 think that north/south configuration is a
17 better community of interest?
18 MR. VAN GORDER: I guess my
19 response would be, to that would be that the
20 way it's currently configured has been very
21 beneficial to the folks in this community of
22 interest and we have to look at any other
23 proposal. It's a tough one to answer. But we
24 are very appreciative of the efforts and the
25 ways it's been beneficial.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Yes, you
2 mentioned the SMSA. Could you outline for me
3 the boundaries of that SMSA?
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Are there more
5 or less?
6 MR. VAN GORDER: I believe that's
7 the general area.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Cortland,
9 Onondaga and Cayuga?
10 MR. VAN GORDER: Correct.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Doesn't include
12 Oswego or Madison?
13 MR. VAN GORDER: Well, Oswego,
14 Cayuga, Madison.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: They too.
16 MR. VAN GORDER: I believe so
17 four would be in the SMSA.
18 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Yes, it would.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Okay. Thank
20 you.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: I believe what
22 we are getting at is the approximately 80,000
23 individuals that have to be added to this
24 congressional district and the 654,000 and I
25 think it's going to be significant for the
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1 task force to find how they would best
2 accommodate the people of Central New York,
3 maintaining the integrity of this district.
4 With the congressional redistricting we
5 are bound by the one person one vote first and
6 foremost in the downstate area by the Voting
7 Rights Act which impacts the three boroughs in
8 New York City. And that's really what drives
9 the redistricting process with the
10 congressional districts. Not the state
11 constitution.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator Skelos'
13 point is very prudent but with respect to the
14 principles that guide us with respect to
15 congressional districts and the reason why I
16 asked the question about the north/south is
17 Senator Skelos highlights the point that we
18 really need to find more people for this
19 district and I would just encourage you, I
20 don't know what rule we are operating on, but
21 certainly further testimony and further
22 guidance for us about should we, again I don't
23 want to speak for anybody on this commission,
24 but we have'a choice. We can move in an east
25 and west, move the boundaries east and west
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1 and sort of make it what I would call fatter,
2 for want of a better term, or we can move it
3 north and south; but as Senator Skelos
4 properly points out, this is the difficult
5 task we face in Western New York or in New
6 York, period, is because what seats have been
7 apportioned to us. You only get 29 and we have
8 got to, in concluding this, find more people.
9 So I encourage everybody, if after this
10 hearing you get other ideas or have additional
11 information that might be important, just
12 forward that to us about where you think that
13 district should be enlarged to keep the kind
14 of public benefit that you have talked about,
15 in a sense of keeping people together in this
16 district, how to make it bigger.
17 MR. VAN GORDER: Thank you, we'll
18 do that.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Next speaker is
20 Nick Pirro, who is the County Executive of
21 Onondaga County and I believe he's represented
22 at this time by --
23 MR. MARTIN FARRELL: Senator Skelos,
24 I'm here on behalf of County Executive Pirro
25 who, as I mentioned to you --
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1 SENATOR SKELOS: If you could
2 just state your name.
3
4 MR. MARTIN FARRELL: Martin Farrell.
5 I'm the Communications Director for Onondaga
6 County and I have provided the committee with
7 the requisite ten copies and if that could
8 stand as Mr. Pirro's comments for the record
9 in this matter. The only thing I might add to
10 that is while this addresses primarily the
11 federal districts, the County Executive would
12 speak similarly about the districts as they
13 effect the New York State Senate and Assembly,
14 that cohesive community, and so if you would
15 take that into consideration in your, again as
16 I said the County Executive's remarks.
17 The County Execute has just arrived, so,
18 he could tell you what he's thinking himself.
19 I'm only his spokesman when he's not around,
20 gentleman.
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22 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO, Onondaga County
23 Executive: Good afternoon.
24 SENATOR SKELOS: You were well
25 represented.
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1 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: Time management
2 is very important.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Welcome.
4 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: First of all,
5 good morning, Chairman Skelos, Chairman
6 Parment and members of the New York State
7 Legislative Task Force on Demographic Research
8 and Reapportionment.
9 First of all I want to welcome you to
10 Onondaga County and hope that when your work
11 is done you'll leave with a sense of why the
12 people who call this home feel so strongly and
13 positively about Onondaga County and Central
14 New York.
15 It also brings me to the main focus of my
16 comments, reapportionment, which the U. S.
17 Constitution dictates be fairly apportioned
18 according to population. In our
19 representative democracy, we undertake this
20 exercise, as you know, every decade to ensure
21 that our citizens are fairly represented in
22 Congress and in the receipt of federal funds.
23 Hopefully it's clear to the community, to
24 the committee, rather, that keeping Onondaga,
25 Cayuga and Cortland Counties in the same
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1 congressional district provides not only a
2 geographic continuity, but a continuity of
3 history. These counties and hamlets, villages
4 and towns and cities within them have a lot in
5 common. Thus, at appears to me, to make a
6 perfectly logical case for the people in these
7 communities to have a single, familiar
8 representative in the people's house.
9 All three counties are part of the same
10 metropolitan statistical area. Ensuring that
11 the urban centers which are an integral part
12 of this district continue to have
13 representation that reflects the economy, the
14 work force and the culture that is quite
15 unique to this particular geographic area of
16 Central New York.
17 The similarities are often striking. Our
18 economies are much more than just similar,
19 they are quite intertwined. Our economic
20 growth patterns are quite comparable and our
21 needs relative to federal and state dollars
22 and programs are very much alike.
23 In my estimation, the people are best
24 served and best represented when there is a
25 consistency. In other words, a citizen who is
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1 familiar with his or her representative would
2 be more inclined to seek and secure assistance
3 that they may not have secured through normal
4 channels, such as the Veterans Administration,
5 Social Security, Medicare, Immigration or
6 Agriculture.
7 We already know what problems can result
8 from splitting homogenous areas into two or
9 more districts. We know because it happened
10 to Onondaga County in 1970, with very
11 unfavorable results. Experience being the
12 best teacher, you can demonstrate by your
13 action that we have learned that lesson.
14 As important to me as the chief elected
15 officer of Onondaga County government, is the
16 record of the current representative who has
17 provided great assistance to his constituents
18 especially in his position on the
19 Appropriations Committee. We currently have a
20 number of very large and expensive projects
21 underway. In my estimation, a continuity of
22 representation to ensure continued funding of
23 Onondaga Lake, the Erie Canal, Finger Lakes
24 watershed work, the Syracuse Neighborhood
25 Initiative and protecting our veterans
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1 programs and services is vital.
2 So, on that I request on behalf of the
3 people of Onondaga County that the New York
4 State Legislature keep the district that
5 currently represents Onondaga, Cortland and
6 Cayuga counties intact.
7 Thank you for your time and your
8 attention.
9 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Yes, thank you
11 for your testimony. I would ask you the same
12 question. You mentioned the standard
13 metropolitan statistical area. What other
14 counties in this region are in that same
15 SMSA?
16 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: Madison and
17 Oswego.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Broome County is
19 not, I assume?
20 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: No. Broome
21 County is approximately, about 70 or so miles
22 from here.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Broome is part
24 of the 25th District currently or part of
25 Broome is. And again, the question on this
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1 particular district would be is the
2 configuration running from Lake Ontario to
3 near the Pennsylvania border, more attractive
4 to Onondaga County than the district that
5 might include surrounding counties east or
6 west of the County of Onondaga?
7 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: Not from my
8 perspective. I think the so-called Central
9 New York area, the area that I mentioned, we
10 work very closely together. We have a lot of
11 people that work from those counties and our
12 County, from our County and those counties. We
13 have a lot of common tourism efforts and we
14 have a lot of economic development. We have
15 formed the Central New York Regional Compact
16 which is the counties that were mentioned,
17 plus Madison and Oswego. We do a lot together.
18 Our Congressman has played a key role in
19 working with that and certainly to go to as
20 far as the Pennsylvania border I think would
21 make that very difficult as a working
22 operation. So, it's most helpful I think, as I
23 mentioned, to keep the area that we are
24 speaking about, Onondaga with the surrounding
25 counties intact.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: You mention a
2 planning group that includes Madison, Oswego?
3 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: What's that?
4 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: What was that
5 group again?
6 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: I'm talking
7 about what's known as the Central New York
8 Regional Compact. It was a group that was
9 formed in conjunction with our business
10 community in which we address common issues to
11 the Onondaga and surrounding counties.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: And which were
13 those counties again, sir?
14 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: The counties
15 that are involved in the Regional Compact are
16 Onondaga, Oswego, Madison, Cortland, Cayuga
17 and Oneida counties.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: And Oneida. Is
19 that approximately the live television media
20 area served by Syracuse?
21 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: Pretty close.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Okay. Thanks.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I have a
24 question. Regarding assembly districts from
25 the big down to the small. Currently as you
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1 well know Onondaga County is fortunate to be
2 able to have four assembly districts entirely
3 within the County. One of the things about
4 redistricting that's easy is that the math
5 tells you what you have and what you don't
6 have. The math tells us now that even if we
7 take the smallest assembly district permitted,
8 Onondaga County his still about 30,000 people
9 shy of being able to have four fit into the
10 County. That means at least one of the
11 districts is going to have to include some
12 part of another county. On the other hand the
13 task force would have an option to make all of
14 them share part of another county and I wonder
15 if you have an opinion as to whether Onondaga
16 County would be better served by three
17 completely within the county and one shared by
18 another County or four all of which spill over
19 into one or more counties on the periphery?
20 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: In my own
21 opinion I think we'd be better served by three
22 entirely within the county and one that spills
23 over.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Thank you.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Now, I want to
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1 follow up with some of it. Senator Skelos said
2 we need to add 80,000 people to this 25th
3 Congressional District, which runs from the
4 lake down to Broome County. In your opinion
5 would it be better to move that east and west,
6 broaden it's width or move it further north
7 and south? And again I want to emphasize, I
8 think as the elected county executive of this
9 county for a long period of time I think your
10 opinion is entitled to significant weight
11 because you have been here on the ground
12 watching economic development, we all know it
13 spills over County borders, we know that
14 that's a critical factor in the life of a
15 region in the community and I mean, I'm almost
16 saying county executive, if you are in our
17 shoes and you had to find 80,000 people where
18 would you go to find them?
19 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: As Chairman of
20 this body, I know it's not easy. I would
21 suggest that again we stay within the areas
22 that are contiguous to the county, that we
23 don't go from one county then to another one;
24 that we stay in the areas that are contiguous
25 to Onondaga County. Being the largest
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1 population center also the medical, other
2 areas that are used by, you know, the region.
3 So that I think the whole area would be better
4 served by staying somewhat with the geographic
5 areas that are adjacent to our County.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: If I could ask a
7 question: I know there is some focus on the
8 25th right now and there are a lot of people
9 here from the 31st. I notice there is a little
10 skinny corridor of the 26th that I believe is
11 congressional district, that I believe is
12 represented by Congressman Hinchi and that
13 runs all the way down notice Ulster County. In
14 terms of potential growth of the 25th, would
15 Tioga, part of Broome or Tompkins fit within
16 that expansion?
17 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: When I look at
18 the area I try to look at where our work force
19 comes from and where we could be best served
20 by relationships and as I said, I think we are
21 best served by Onondaga being the hub and
22 obviously from a standpoint of our location we
23 are kind of right in the middle of the state
24 and moving that circle around us as opposed to
25 going out in any type of long lines. I just
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1 feel that from the standpoint of the citizens
2 out there that you had be better served by
3 that type of a geographic setup than if they
4 are at the tail end of some long line.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm not talking
6 about going down to Ulster County. I'm talking
7 within the areas that touch the southern part
8 of the 25th.
9 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: I think I'd
10 prefer to go to the inside.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Okay.
12 MR. NICHOLAS PIRRO: Thank you very
13 much.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Addie Kelley. Is
16 Addie Kelley here?
17
18 MS. ADDIE KELLEY, Second Place East
19 Homeless Shelter: Good afternoon,
20 ladies and gentlemen. I have several, my items
21 are not going to be anything like the two
22 gentleman who spoke before. My items are not
23 going to be anything like the two gentleman
24 who spoke before me.
25 I am here with concerns about people who
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1 cannot speak for themselves which there are
2 many. Number one priority, as far as I'm
3 concerned, is the disgraceful treatment of and
4 establishment of centers for veterans. I
5 think that there is already a move towards
6 doing different things with the VAs, and if,
7 in fact, there were lines drawn I don't know
8 how that would effect these people. They are
9 effected right now simply because they have no
10 long term care, and I think that it's time
11 that we stood up and said yes, we do respect
12 you as veterans, because if you hadn't been
13 there we would not be here. That's one of my
14 big problems. There is only a 90 limit for a
15 rehab and then there is no domiciliary care
16 and the mental hygiene part of the VA at Bath
17 has been taken to Canandaigua. This makes
18 people who have any family at all even more
19 alienated and they are not anywheres near
20 where they should be. We should be treating
21 them closest to their home.
22 The other things that we are seeing are
23 that they didn't commit a crime. They
24 shouldn't be incarcerated. They should be
25 treated. And they should be treated like
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1 gentlemen and ladies, which they are. If we
2 lose the district and we lose some of these
3 facilities, I have no idea what is going to
4 happen to these people. The long term care
5 people are already being put into family care
6 homes or private nursing homes. That is not,
7 to me, anything that we should be doing to
8 people who have helped to save our country.
9 My second priority is to help the
10 homeless and others who are not able to do,
11 for whatever reason, to get a job, to support
12 their families. And I think probably every
13 area has gone through downsizing, et cetera,
14 whatever you want to call it. And I think the
15 thing that we are forgetting along the way is
16 that many of the programs that we see in our
17 high school students now are not technical
18 jobs. Nobody is going to choose a technical
19 job unless you show them that there is money
20 to be made in that area. That has to do with
21 our BOCES and our areas where people really
22 need to be trained. We need rent money to
23 encourage these people and how is your grant
24 money doled out? By population, I'm assuming.
25 And I think we need genuine proven programs.
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1 But, before we need that we need the
2 representation and we really would like to
3 keep our area as we are, which is probably
4 urban, semi-rural urban, and this is the area
5 where we want to stay. We do not want to
6 change. Thank you.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very
8 much. Tom Rhodes?
9
10 MR. THOMAS RHODES, Local Agricultural
11 Representative: Good morning. My
12 name is Tom Rhodes and I'm speaking to you as
13 one who has lived and worked in the Southern
14 Tier of New York State all my life. I was born
15 and raised on our family farm which has been
16 in operation since 1886. Throughout the years
17 the population centers have changed and
18 suburban sprawl has encroached on some areas.
19 The area as a whole, though, still remains
20 rural in character and therein perhaps lies
21 its appeal.
22 From my perspective, the recent national
23 elections serve to illustrate the differing
24 philosophies of rural versus urban areas.
25 Although in many instances we want the same
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1 things, such as affordable health care, good
2 schools, and a healthy economy, we differ on
3 the method that should be used to achieve
4 these goals.
5 The 31st Congressional District of today
6 is basically rural in character. It is not
7 currently dominated by any major metropolitan
8 area. To reshape this district to include a
9 metropolitan center such as Buffalo, Rochester
10 or Syracuse would essentially negate the
11 voices of this district's many rural
12 residents. It might be something akin to the
13 influence New York City has over Upstate New
14 York.
15 As a farmer, I can testify that there are
16 certain issues where rural and urban residents
17 are definitely not in accord. For example,
18 government, in this country, has historically
19 maintained a cheap food policy. Within urban
20 areas, opposing any increase in the price of
21 food is almost always politically correct.
22 This does, however, put an increasing burden
23 on rural America. Take stock of what you see
24 when driving through rural areas of Upstate
25 New York. How many empty barns do you see? How
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1 many fields that once had crops are now
2 overgrown with weeds? How many feed stores,
3 farm machinery dealers and farm supply stores
4 are now closed? All of these served to fuel
5 the economies of the many small towns and
6 hamlets which comprise our 31st Congressional
7 District.
8 I bring these things to your attention
9 not to make a case for agriculture, about
10 which I feel very strongly, but, to
11 demonstrate that for the long term good of
12 all, the voices of rural American,
13 particularly those of the 31st Congressional
14 District should not be silenced or
15 compromised. Thank you.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Yes. Basically
17 to get back to the same thing which we were
18 talking about before, the current 31st
19 Congressional District needs to grow by about
20 78,000 people as I remember the number, maybe
21 80,000. In light of your statement, in what
22 direction would you think the current 31st
23 District should expand in order to incorporate
24 an additional 80,000 people?
25 MR. THOMAS RHODES: Well, it would
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1 appear to me that going in an easterly
2 direction would be preferrable to going
3 further north.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Next speaker is
6 Anthony Cooper.
7
8 MR. ANTHONY COOPER, CEO and President of
9 Arnot-Ogden Medical Center: Good afternoon.
10 My name is Tony Cooper and I'm the President
11 of the Arnot-Ogden Medical Center, A 200 bed
12 hospital located in Elmira, New York. I'd like
13 to thank this panel for hearing me address the
14 question, "are the interests of the people of
15 the 31st District sufficiently different from
16 those of other districts to warrant
17 maintaining the 31st as an entity?" And my
18 answer to that question, of course, is a
19 resounding yes.
20 Others have, and will, address you with
21 sociologic and other data. My particular area
22 of interest is healthcare delivery and I wish
23 to share one or two points with you along that
24 vein.
25 Unlike the situation in districts
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1 contiguous to ours, our area is dominated for
2 the most part by small employers who typically
3 cannot provide the same health insurance
4 benefits that larger employees do. Then, too,
5 we have a higher percentage of our population
6 enrolled in the Medicare and Medicaid
7 programs. All of this means that our
8 healthcare providers are much more dependent
9 upon government for their revenue streams.
10 Having the undivided attention and loyalty of
11 our Congressperson, then, is utterly critical
12 to us.
13 But, there are other differences between
14 the 31st District and districts to which we
15 might be hacked up and appended.
16 The healthcare landscape in those other
17 districts is dominated by medical schools and
18 large teaching hospitals, most of which have
19 coalesced into hospital systems with thousands
20 of beds. They have a ready supply of
21 physicians and hefty endowments to cushion
22 their financial wes.
23 By contrast, a few of the hospitals in
24 the 31st District are in small cities, but
25 most are 20 miles from the next nearest
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1 facility. Three or four are the only hospitals
2 in their respective counties. Closing a
3 hospital, as has been debated in Buffalo and
4 Rochester, is hardly an option for a community
5 whose institution is the only facility in a 25
6 mile radius.
7 We have no interns and residents to man
8 primary care clinics. Nor can we place greater
9 reliance on home care when the distances
10 between clients make home care providers
11 highly inefficient. Few of our hospitals have
12 large endowments to underwrite our costs. The
13 only safety net we have is our elected
14 representative. Without him or her, it is not
15 at all a remote possibility that the only
16 hospital in an area of 150 scare miles will
17 fail.
18 Let me provide you with three concrete
19 examples wherein it was absolutely vital that
20 we had our own Congressman. First, for years
21 now, Medicare reimbursement rules worked
22 against small city hospitals. Over time, the
23 hospitals in Jamestown and Elmira, New York
24 became the lowest paid hospitals in the
25 country. We approached our Congressman and he
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1 got the HCFA rules changed. Congressmen in
2 other districts were where preoccupied with it
3 plight of our larger urban counterparts. Ours
4 wasn't and vital relief wouldn't have come to
5 us without his keen attention.
6 My second example occurred last year.
7 Hospitals are reeling from the effects of the
8 Balanced Budget Act of 1997. The large and
9 prestigious teaching hospitals in New York
10 City and elsewhere started taking out very
11 pointed ads along that point in the Washington
12 Post that, in retrospect, inflamed the
13 sensibilities of the wrong people in
14 Washington. Battle lines became drawn and a
15 stalemate eventuated. Again, it was our
16 Congressman who brought the now Chairman of
17 the House Ways and Means Committee to Elmira,
18 New York so that he could see firsthand that
19 New York is not just mega medical centers. For
20 the first time anywhere, he coaxed a promise
21 from Mr. Thomas that BBA Relief was needed,
22 even for the hospitals in New York.
23 My third example occurred just two years
24 ago. Unbeknownst to us, a federal grant was
25 being awarded to see diabetics in rural areas
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1 could have their disease managed over the
2 Internet. Grantees had been selected, if you
3 can imagine this, from Syracuse and New York
4 City. Our Congressman got wind of this and
5 insisted that hospitals in his district, which
6 served rural populations, should be included
7 in the grant. Without him, the hospitals in
8 Olean, Elmira and for that matter, Watertown
9 would not have been party to this important
10 work.
11 When nine out of ten of the people who
12 elected you live in a large city, is it
13 realistic to expect that you'll devote more
14 than 10% of your time and energy to the
15 others? Isn't that a little like asking Dr.
16 Debakey to do appendectomies, Joe Torrey to
17 run batting practice or Dennis Tito to take a
18 Caribbean cruise?
19 In conclusion, then, I reiterate: The
20 healthcare system in the 31st District doesn't
21 have much. There are as many hospitals in the
22 city of Buffalo proper as there are in our
23 entire district. We have fewer physicians and
24 nurses than they do in most large cities. Ours
25 is not an easy existence. We are somewhat
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1 fragilely perched. If we are to survive, we
2 must have a direct line to Washington. In a
3 very real sense, our future is in our hands.
4 Thank you.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Yes. Would you
6 describe for me your areas in regard to where
7 your patients come from?
8 MR. ANTHONY COOPER: Yes, the
9 patients at my particular facilities come
10 predominantly from Chemung County, the home
11 county for Elmira New York. We also enjoy
12 referrals from eastern Steuben County and
13 Schuyler County and we get approximately 8% of
14 our patients from the northern tier of
15 Pennsylvania.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Do any of your
17 patients come from Tioga County?
18 MR. ANTHONY COOPER: By and large
19 they do not. There is a major medical center
20 to the south of us in Pennsylvania that gets
21 probably 25% of those. The balance go to
22 Binghamton.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: That would be
24 the Guthrie Clinic?
25 MR. ANTHONY COOPER: Guthrie Clinic
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1 is south of us. I'm sorry to hear you know
2 their name.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I drive by there
4 every Monday morning. That's all the questions
5 I have.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one. Mr.
7 Cooper, can you describe the referral pattern
8 for when you have people that need other
9 procedures and aren't available in your
10 hospital? I really want to just address the
11 question much like Assemblyman Parment. Not
12 just from where you take your patients in but
13 what other hospitals do you have relationships
14 with? Are they north, further north,
15 Canandaigua comes to mind, other places like
16 that, or more on an east/west frame, because
17 as I think Assemblyman Parment has said, this
18 is a district we have to enlarge and we have
19 to find other people. We want them to be
20 people that have ties and relationships which
21 is what you have heard the questions focus on.
22 And my question to you is, your hospital's
23 relationships, do they run north/south or
24 east/west?
25 MR. ANTHONY COOPER: I have to admit
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1 that by and large the referrals we make out
2 would go to principally Rochester. So in that
3 case I would think north/south.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I have a
5 question. Mr. Cooper, I think to somewhat
6 comment on the line of questioning of Senator
7 Dollinger, my impression of your testimony is
8 not where you get your patients from
9 necessarily, but, where you get your
10 congressional representation from.
11 MR. ANTHONY COOPER: Thank you.
12 That's exactly my point.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: And the three
14 examples that you made were very illustrative.
15 I happen to live in the 24th District. The
16 largest city is Watertown. Our district is
17 very similar. You could have given the same
18 testimony on behalf of Congressman McHugh in
19 the 24th District. I wonder if the point you
20 are making is that to summarize it in totality
21 it would not serve your interests or the
22 interests of rural healthcare for you or that
23 district to have either Buffalo or Rochester
24 or Syracuse as the major metropolitan area in
25 your district. Does that summarize your
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1 testimony?
2 MR. ANTHONY COOPER: That summarizes
3 it very well, Assemblyman New York State has
4 one of the largest rural, I don't have to tell
5 you that we have one of the largest rural
6 populations of any state in the Union and I
7 think for us not to have a designated hitter
8 that will represent rural interests is, in my
9 opinion, a mistake. No man can serve two
10 masters. You are going to serve the urban,
11 your going to serve the rural. As they say,
12 the lion and the lamb may lay down together
13 but the lamb won't get much sleep.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Thank you.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Georgia Verdier.
16
17 MS. GEORGIA VERDIER, President, NAACP
18 Elmira-Corning Chapter: Good afternoon.
19 My name is Georgia Verdier. And I wear a few
20 hats. I am president of the NAACP; I'm a
21 member of the League of Women Voters and a few
22 other organizations in my area. I come from
23 Corning, New York and today I feel like a
24 small piece of a puzzle called grass roots.
25 So, I'm here to talk about some of the
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1 benefits in terms of maintaining our district.
2 I believe we have a very unique area and
3 you have seen the map that runs from
4 Chautauqua County to Cayuga and we are well
5 connected by Route 17 which we got through
6 having our area intact and up to I-86. So,
7 although it's a large district, we are still
8 well connected. So, as a result of that it
9 makes us unique.
10 The counties that comprise this district
11 have much in common. Such as a rural bond and
12 a unique life style that differ from the
13 hustle and bustle of big city life. Granted we
14 have pockets of most problems and concerns
15 that are associated with our sister cities.
16 However, magnitude determines priority. So, we
17 believe that if we have to be connected to a
18 larger city the issues and concerns that we
19 have today will probably be overshadowed by
20 the magnitude or problems in the larger
21 cities. If our district remains intact we'll
22 have a direct voice in Washington. An voice
23 for industrial center, natural resources and
24 agricultural. In other words, a voice for our
25 specific needs and concerns. And this is
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1 crucial to us. I have lived in a larger city
2 so I know what happens once you are there. The
3 problems are so numerous that many of the
4 issues we are dealing with and many of the
5 concerns we have down in our area of the
6 country just will not be priority from history
7 if we have to connect. We are youth oriented
8 and therefore, we are aware of the importance
9 of preparing a leadership for a high
10 technological society. However, in order to
11 keep them interested, our youth, we must cone
12 concentrate on encouraging businesses to
13 remain here in our area and others to invest
14 there. I work a lot with youth as the add I
15 talked before us and I work for the New York
16 State Department of Mental Health so I'm
17 connected with people and I have talked with
18 the youth about remaining in our area and many
19 of them would like to do that. However, they
20 have to make a decent income. So, we are about
21 insuring that we have the businesses there and
22 others interested in investing their so when
23 our young people, if they should go away to
24 college, they are encouraged to come back and
25 help maintain the area that we are in. And I
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1 believe we can do that if we stay intact.
2 Lastly, I'm a member of an ethnic group as you
3 can see, and I'm a leader in that group and
4 it's important for me and other
5 African-Americans to occasionally have an
6 audience with politicians and other leaders in
7 districts and due to our uniqueness we have
8 direct contact. I can meet with Congressman
9 Holton almost any time he's in the area and
10 this relationship enhances our ability to
11 create awareness about issues that are unique
12 to the population. Therefore, we are able to
13 address concerns and issues before they become
14 significant problems. During the past I lived
15 in a large metropolitan area where access was
16 impossible and problems were the daily diet.
17 We have much to lose through reapportionment.
18 However, we are winners so we are here to
19 claim victory and I believe that having the
20 grass roots campaign that we have, all the
21 people in our district can take ownership for
22 that. And we stretch from as I said,
23 Chautauqua County to Cayuga, and everybody is
24 involved and I'm here to plead with you to
25 really consider keeping us intact and keeping
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1 the uniqueness of our area and I believe that
2 you will be proud. Any questions?
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just have one.
4 MS. GEORGIA VERDIER: Make it easy.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll just ask one
6 question. If we take this Southern Tier
7 District and we expand it further east, we'll
8 end up with a district that will be, Billy,
9 150 miles long.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: 220.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 220 miles from
12 one end to the other. It will be an enormous
13 geographic area and I understand you live in
14 Corning. But, does the fact that it would be
15 so massive, it would be so big, does that
16 effect your judgment about the communities
17 along the line being in that same district?
18 Maybe it would be much easier for us because
19 we need to find population to put a city in
20 there. Whatever city it would be. And
21 therefore, we would have a district that isn't
22 long and stretching 220 miles. You might end
23 up, depending on who represents you if this
24 district were created, could you live 150
25 miles away from your congressional
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1 representative?. Does that effect your
2 judgment about this?
3 MS. GEORGIA VERDIER: That's the major
4 concern for me. That's why I spoke to the
5 uniqueness of what we have. We have access to
6 one another as we are. But, as you expand and
7 move further either way you are diluting that
8 effectiveness, in my opinion. So, I don't know
9 how we can draw those people. Hopefully from
10 surrounding areas. But, in trying to move
11 toward Rochester, Syracuse or other cities
12 further away I just see us losing that and
13 losing the voice that we have. It has to be
14 shared in so many places and for me that
15 dilutes the effectiveness of that.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one follow up.
17 But, moving further east where we get into
18 Sullivan County and other places that have the
19 Catskills and the more distinctive character
20 to them I think, at least my sense is maybe
21 different than the environment that you talked
22 about in the Southern Tier, the one that you
23 want to preserve. Do we mix too much if we mix
24 sort of that Catskills with the Southern Tier?
25 I mean, I understand that's your preference
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1 but I'm just interested in your opinion.
2 MS. GEORGIA VERDIER: Well, I think we
3 are concerned about everybody. We don't want
4 to dilute anybody's area and how we are going
5 to do that I don't have the answer for that.
6 But we are just as concerned about other
7 people because each person, each area has its
8 uniqueness and we don't minimize the
9 uniqueness of the largest cities. They have a
10 special flavor and they can work well with
11 what they have. But as we expand into other
12 areas, I think whether it's our district or
13 any other one you start to lose that
14 effectiveness.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Yes, I wonder,
17 could you reflect on relationship between your
18 community -- is it Corning?
19 MS. GEORGIA VERDIER: Corning.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: And do you have
21 a relationship that would create a tie to
22 Ithaca?
23 MS. GEORGIA VERDIER: Well, I really
24 can't speak to that. I know Ithaca is not that
25 far away, but, I'm sure that the uniqueness of
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1 Ithaca, however they are connected, if that's
2 what they would prefer to have. So we don't
3 want to really take over somebody else's
4 territory. Because like I said earlier, we are
5 all concerned about maintaining the uniqueness
6 of our areas and as I said to you that poses a
7 problem because when you need more population,
8 the question comes up, where will you get it?
9 How will you get it? And I don't have that
10 answer for you. But if Tompkins County is
11 connected in such a way that they have the
12 same uniqueness we are talking about, no, I
13 don't want to say we want to take that County.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thanks.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very
16 much. We'd just like to comment, if the
17 district is to move eastward, Senator
18 Dollinger mentioned Sullivan County, I think
19 there is a lot of population between Tioga and
20 Broome before you get to Sullivan County, but
21 what I really want to comment on is I want to
22 thank Team 31 for being here. This is what
23 these hearings are about, to get input from
24 citizens such as yourselves, and certainly I
25 know I speak for this entire task force and
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1 say thank you very much for being here and I
2 know there is going to be a substantial turn
3 out once again tomorrow in Binghamton. I'm not
4 sure if it will be Team 31, but certainly we
5 appreciate your involvement in this very
6 important process and thank you for being
7 here.
8 MS. GEORGIA VERDIER: Thank you so
9 much for having us.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Georgia, could
11 you suffer one more question and it will be
12 easy. Because I think I understand you and I'd
13 like you to reiterate it again. Senator
14 Dollinger made a very telling comment when you
15 are looking to add 80,000 people. Sometimes
16 the easiest way to do that is just to reach
17 out and bring in a city and I think your point
18 is that even though that might be easy, you'd
19 rather that we do it in a way to reach out and
20 encompass rural areas, not just grab a city.
21 Am I reading you right?
22 MS. GEORGIA VERDIER: You're correct.
23 You're correct.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Thank you.
25 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you once
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1 again. Joan Mandle. Common Cause, Western,
2 New York.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Just for the
4 record, the western boundary of Chautauqua
5 County is about 220 miles from the city of
6 Binghamton.
7
8 MS. JOAN MANDLE, Common Cause, Watern,
9 New York: I'm Joan Mandle.
10 I'm professor of Sociology at Colgate
11 University and a long time member of New York
12 Common Cause. Common Cause is very pleased to
13 have the opportunity --
14 SENATOR SKELOS: You are a
15 professor, you say?
16 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Yes.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: At which
18 University?
19 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Colgate
20 University. Common Cause New York is pleased
21 to have the opportunity to testify today on
22 redistricting, as it is the underlying issue
23 that frames all others in relation to
24 democracy in government.
25 For more than 30 years, as many of you
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1 know, Common Cause has be a leading advocate
2 for democratic reforms to our political
3 process. Reforms on issues like those raised
4 in the 2000 elections that are critical to
5 realizing the principle of one person, one
6 vote. We have been a leader at the federal and
7 state level on campaign finance issues,
8 legislative and executive branch ethics rules,
9 reapportionment and redistricting and other
10 election related laws like same day
11 registration and motor voter. We also have
12 been consistent participants in civil and
13 voting rights coalitions, and in attempting to
14 energize and mobilize all citizens to
15 participate in our democracy. And that's the
16 philosophy that motivates these comments.
17 I'd like to begin by saying that Common
18 Cause of New York endorses the findings of a
19 NYPIRG study that you may be familiar with.
20 NYPIRG is the New York Public Interest
21 Research Group. This study was released in
22 February, 2001 and showed how drawing the
23 district lines impacts the democratic process.
24 I will just summarize some of the
25 findings of the NYPIRG study.
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1 One finding was that only 25 incumbents
2 have been elected, I'm sorry, have been
3 defeated in the general elections in New York
4 State over the past 20 years. In the last
5 4,220 legislative have races in the general
6 election, incumbents were defeated only 25
7 times. That's less than 1% of the races. The
8 trend toward incumbency protection in New York
9 State has increased rather than decreased over
10 time.
11 A second finding of the NYPIRG study is
12 that only 25 of the 211 legislative districts
13 have major party enrollments that could allow
14 frequent competitive elections. Of the 61
15 state senate districts, 24 are drawn to give
16 one political party an enrollment edge of
17 40,000 or more, and 18 grant an enrollment
18 edge of between 25,000 and 40,000. Normally it
19 is very difficult for challengers to take on
20 an incumbent in those kinds of districts.
21 Thirdly, 177 of the 211 victors in the
22 2000 election outspent their opponents by a
23 ratio of at least two to one. In political
24 campaigns, unfortunately, in our view, money
25 talks and it talks loudly. Campaign
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1 contributors like to bet on winners and when
2 it comes to New York elections, incumbents
3 almost always win.
4 Competitive elections are the life blood
5 of democracy. Only through the clash of ideas
6 can voters intelligently understand complex
7 public policies and think through the
8 implications of policy alternatives.
9 Competitive elections stimulate voter interest
10 in elections and in state government. New
11 York's policies that determine legislative
12 districts and set campaign finance practices
13 today smoother competitive elections and thus
14 endanger democracy.
15 It doesn't have to be that way. As you
16 and other lawmakers contemplate their
17 constitutional redistricting obligations, we
18 urge you to insure that nourishing competitive
19 elections is a top objective.
20 And I'd like to outline for you three
21 critical components of any meaningful reform
22 package. And these components have been
23 endorsed not only by New York Common Cause,
24 but also by the New York League of Women
25 Voters an by NYPIRG.
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1 The first of these components is that we
2 urge you to allow the public to participate in
3 the redistricting process. We certainly
4 believe that these public hearings are an
5 important component. The 2001-2002
6 redistricting process could be the most open
7 in the nation's history. With unprecedented
8 advances in technology, citizens now have the
9 capability of participating in the
10 redistricting process, but only if lawmakers
11 encourage them to do so. New York State should
12 add to its website all information it uses or
13 considers in the development of its district
14 lines. You were raising that question of
15 computers talking to computers. In addition,
16 lawmakers should issue draft district lines
17 well in advance of the June, 2002 deadline, so
18 that citizens may have the time to consider
19 and to comment on them. We must note that the
20 notice for this public hearing was not on
21 either website for the New York State Senate
22 or the New York State Assembly and that Common
23 Cause as one of the watch dogs in New York
24 State for the last 30 years did not receive a
25 notice of this hearing. That is not a
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1 transparent start to this process. It is not
2 as transparent as it should be or could be.
3 The public needs to be notified and kept
4 informed of the process.
5 The second point that we would make that
6 is endorsed by the three organizations that I
7 mentioned is to minimize the role of partisan
8 enrollment in developing new district lines
9 for the 2002 elections. New York State's
10 redistricting process in the past has been too
11 partisan. The legislative leadership controls
12 district lines for each house. The Republican
13 controlled Senate draws its lines and the
14 Democractic controlled Assembly does the same.
15 Both houses agree to the other's plan and the
16 legislation is sent to the Governor for his
17 approval.
18 Therefore, again are alternatives. Some
19 states have a non-partisan redistricting
20 system. The state of Iowa, for example, has a
21 non-partisan system of redistricting that
22 could be followed in New York in time for the
23 2002 changes. Civil service-like technicians
24 make the first draft of the district lines.
25 And they are by law not allowed to consider
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1 incumbents' home addresses or to use the party
2 affiliation of voters in considering those
3 lines. The proposed district lines are then
4 sent to the state lawmakers for approval or
5 disapproval and, of course, the legislature is
6 not permitted to amend them. And the courts
7 are empowered to step in. This is a
8 non-partisan redistricting process that we
9 believe serves the people and serves the
10 democractic process.
11 And lastly, as part of the component of
12 changes that we are urging is to enact
13 comprehensive campain finance reform. The
14 examination of the 2000 election in New York
15 State results clearly documents that in those
16 few competitive districts big money made the
17 difference. It's quite apparent that the
18 current system of establishing state
19 legislative districts dramatically minimizes
20 the number of competitive races.
21 New York does not have a campaign finance
22 system that most of us who are citizens of New
23 York feel proud of. We don't feel that it
24 serves the democractic process and it
25 eliminates what little competition there is.
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1 New York State lawmakers do not have to look
2 far for a good model of how to reform its
3 campaign finance system. Described by the New
4 York Times as "the best and fairest way for
5 candidates to run for political office", New
6 York City has a system of public financing of
7 elections that is a model for the nation. As a
8 result of its four public dollars for every
9 one dollarraised from small private donations,
10 New York City now has competitive elections in
11 which average citizens have a shot at elective
12 office. We'd like to comment on the fact that
13 the Assembly has been debating this issue and
14 passed again a public financing component to
15 its version of campaign finance reform,
16 yesterday I think. This is the model that
17 state lawmakers should emulate in Albany.
18 We urge you to dramatically revisit how
19 you implement redistricting in New York State.
20 Nothing less than our democractic rights and
21 our democracy is at stake. First, we need to
22 make sure that the process is completely
23 transparent, that the public has access. I
24 agree with you it's very good that there are a
25 number of citizens here today. But, there
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1 should be many, many more. We want the public
2 involved.
3 Secondly, we urge you to turn the tides
4 on the overtly partisan redistricting that has
5 taken place in the past and replace it with a
6 non-partisan model that puts citizens before
7 politics.
8 Common Cause New York looks forward to
9 working with you to try to achieve the goal of
10 a working democracy and I thank you again for
11 the opportunity to testify today.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Just one
13 question. We note the omission of having
14 posted this on the website.
15 Ms. Joan mandle: Thank you.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: And I was
17 curious as to how you were made aware that we
18 were having the hearing?
19 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Common Cause
20 tries to find out from its lobbiests in Albany
21 the various kinds of hearings that are going
22 on.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: So, you were
24 notified by your representative in Albany?
25 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Yes.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I see.
2 MS. JOAN MANDLE: I was called.
3 I'm a member of Common Cause. I was called by
4 our Executive Director and asked if I could
5 represent today.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I see. Thank
7 you.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Don't feel too
9 bad. I wasn't informed of the hearing until
10 Friday of last week. This is a major failing
11 and I think we all recognize that and I know
12 that the task force is going to make every
13 effort to do a better job in the future. Thank
14 you for holding our feet to the fire. Let me
15 ask you a question: You are a professor of
16 political science?
17 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Sociology.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Sociology. I
19 don't want to start an argument, but I want to
20 plant a seed. Because I think it's important
21 to recognize that perhaps the measure you are
22 using of quality redistricting may be a flawed
23 model and by that I mean using competitive
24 elections, and defeat of incumbents as an
25 indicator whether redistricting is good or
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1 not. An I will use my own example that I think
2 if it doesn't disprove the theory, it makes
3 you think about it. Because 10 years ago the
4 majority in the assembly created a district
5 for me to run in which clearly was more
6 competitive than it had been before and how
7 did they do that? They took six Republican
8 towns out of my district and added a heavily
9 Democractic town to the other end. In order to
10 do that they had to cross an area code
11 boundary, so I have one town that's in a
12 different area code, across a postal boundary,
13 county line and the people in that one town
14 still to this day 10 years later feel that
15 they were put upon because in order to make a
16 more competitive district, which I still won
17 -- but that's not the point -- MS. JOAN
18 MANDLE: I noticed.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: -- in order to
20 make a more competitive district I think at
21 least in that case the effort went too far and
22 defeated the overriding interest of keeping
23 communities together, to take one town of a
24 county, put it in another district to make
25 that more competitive. I'm sure you'd agree
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1 that at least in that case that may have been
2 the wrong idea or it may have been misguided
3 guided or had unintended results. So, I would
4 urge Common Cause and NYPIRG and others who
5 are doing such a fine job of commenting on, to
6 rethink using defeative incumbents or
7 competitive elections as the sole or primary
8 measurement. You can go a long way and I'd ask
9 you to comment briefly on that. But you could
10 certainly create a competitive district by
11 taking two large cities and putting them in
12 the same district and then both would compete.
13 Does that serve the interests of either
14 community?
15 MS. JOAN MANDLE: I understand
16 what you're saying and I think you make a good
17 point. I certainly can't comment on what
18 happened in terms of your own district because
19 I'm not familiar with that. It sounds like it
20 may have been a problem. I think that the
21 concern here, through Common Cause and NYPIRG
22 and the League of Women Voters, are not out to
23 try to defeat incumbents. In fact, we are
24 against things like term limits because we
25 feel that term limits turn people out who do
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1 an excellent job. The people have a right to
2 vote in their representatives if they are
3 doing an excellent job. When you see the kind
4 of pattern that exists in New York State,
5 however, when the question of incumbents being
6 returned over and over again and the link to
7 campaign financing when incumbents have such a
8 huge campaign finance advantage, such that
9 they are, there aren't enough that are running
10 around someone from the other party says we'll
11 put somebody up as sort of a sacrificial lamb,
12 I think when you look at that whole picture
13 what we are trying to say is we have a serious
14 problem. Unfortunately it's not just New York
15 State, either. This happens in the other
16 states. And we need to look at redistricting,
17 look at the extent of competition, look at how
18 we can reinvigorate our democracy.
19 Unfortunately, Americans are voting with their
20 feet by not voting in very large numbers and
21 all of us who care about the functioning of
22 government have to worry about the sources of
23 those. So, you know, I take your points in
24 terms of focusing on competitive elections as
25 the sole and only criteria that should be
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1 used. I don't think that that was the intent
2 necessarily. It's a question of trying to
3 balance what we see as some of the really
4 egregious problems that interfere with the
5 democratic process and people stepping forward
6 to run for office and having a chance at
7 winning.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Thank you.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one
10 observation. I think that I understand Common
11 Cause and NYPIRG and the League of Women
12 Voters coming in and talking to us about
13 competitive elections and the political
14 realities of New York. I would just suggest a
15 slightly different act, which would be an
16 assistance to this commission. We cannot, we
17 do not have the power, the six of us sitting
18 here, to make those changes. We can't change
19 campaign finance, we can't change
20 redistricting. We have state constitutional
21 obligations with respect to Senate and
22 Assembly seats and have federal obligations
23 with respect to the congressional seats and I
24 would just suggest that what would be helpful
25 would be a discussion of the variables that we
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1 have talked about today with respect to the
2 Senate and Assembly, degrees of interests and
3 other state norms and assistance in trying to
4 define how we deal with problem of the
5 striking of two congressional seats and
6 expansion of the 31st District or the Southern
7 Tier District, I'd rather refer to it that way
8 because the one thing we are absolutely sure
9 is we'll not have 31 congressional districts
10 in New York. We are only going to have 29. So
11 I would just suggest that I understand the
12 advocacy of those groups and I think it's
13 great and important and I agree with it in
14 many, many areas and we have a debate about
15 the Constitutional Convention, it may change
16 this whole process, but the bottom line is we
17 are faced with a task, under the current
18 restrictions; we have a job to do and I would
19 just urge Common Cause and the League of Women
20 Voters and NYPIRG if we can get you access to
21 the data to draw some plans, to take a look at
22 those plans, to take your ideas of
23 competitiveness and put them into play and
24 give us an opportunity to respond to those and
25 consider them in doing the task that we have
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1 at hand.
2 MS. JOAN MANDLE: I'll take that
3 back to the Executive Board and we'll try to
4 get you something that's much more specific.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. ROMAN HEDGES: One last point.
7 When your representative of Albany pointed out
8 that we didn't have it posted on the website,
9 within an hour we did. We appreciate the
10 advice.
11 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Thanks. Thank
12 you very much.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: May I ask you a
14 question? You mentioned Civil Service
15 technicians to draw the nice little square
16 boxes.
17 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Not necessarily
18 square.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Would they
20 really take into account people that came up
21 and testified today and the citizens of the
22 same 31st --
23 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Well, I think
24 that the irony is what benefits all the people
25 of the State of New York, you know, clearly
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1 somebody's going to be unhappy no matter what
2 happens in terms of redistricting. I mean,
3 that's why it's important to do public
4 hearings and allow people to speak out. But, I
5 think that a process that takes it out of the
6 hands of potentially partisan members of the
7 Assembly initially and at least makes the
8 argument, what kind of district can we draw
9 that would be a benefit for the whole state?
10 How would everybody best have their interests
11 served by these kinds of drawing?
12 SENATOR SKELOS: The
13 redistricting is delegated to the legislature
14 by the New York State Constitution. Did the
15 people of the State of New York opt not to
16 have a constitution convention in the last
17 three years? I forget when the vote was,
18 whether it was a year or two ago.
19 MS. JOAN MANDLE: They did.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: They did vote it
21 down?
22 MS. JOAN MANDLE: As far as I
23 know.
24 SENATOR SKELOS: So they
25 basically felt the constitution of the State
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1 of New York was treating the people of the
2 State of New York fairly well.
3 MS. JOAN MANDLE: I think that
4 that certainly could be concluded from that.
5 On the other hand there are many of us who
6 believe that there are lots of problems that
7 need to be addressed and that people should
8 have a right to speak out.
9 SENATOR SKELOS: What Assemblyman
10 Ortloff mentioned, in 1992 there was a
11 redistricting process and there was an
12 incumbent democratic Senate that thought they
13 changed the district and maybe a representive
14 could win. And there was a young assemblyman
15 at that time, I happened to be that
16 assemblyman, that ran against that incumbent
17 democratic State Senate and lost. And
18 fortunatel for me two years later I did win.
19 But, I think we underestimate the intelligence
20 of people. I think people make very, very
21 good choices on election day and I don't think
22 they have to be told how to vote, who to
23 choose. I think they make very, very
24 intelligent decisions.
25 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Well, I think
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1 that when you have a country as a whole where
2 normally less than 50% of the people vote at
3 all, we have a problem with democracy.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, no
5 question that more people should be voting.
6 But that's their voice whether to vote or
7 not.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Not to be
9 argumentative, but since we are discussing it
10 --
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Do you have
12 tenure?
13 MS. JOAN MANDLE: Yes, I have
14 tenure.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: You do have
16 tenure?
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Well, you know,
18 I read NYPIRG's -- and let me just observe
19 that the people of the state, for reasons that
20 are historical, have generally affiliated with
21 either the democratic or republican party. And
22 in large measure they do this in communities
23 in a way that in compliance with the state
24 constitution is, requirements that are not
25 subdivided by townships or assembly and senate
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1 seats, give us limited options in creating
2 districts that are evenly balanced between
3 Republicans and Democrats. And just
4 facetiously I mentioned to one of the people
5 he could, in fact, come to Steuben County,
6 draw a Democractic assembly district, I'd put
7 him on the task force. I can tell you it can't
8 be done, because the people in Steuben County
9 for their own purposes have historically
10 chosen to associate themselves, affiliate
11 themselves with the Republican party and vote
12 that way. Steuben County has about 100,000
13 people, as I recall. And it is a bigger part
14 of one of our current assembly districts and
15 probably will be the bigger part of whatever
16 we devise and I can tell you with certainty
17 that the overlay between Republicans and
18 Democrats, it will be substantially in favor
19 of the Republicans and there is nothing that
20 we can do to change that because that's the
21 way the people choose to affiliate. Now, we
22 can make the same kind of description of
23 districts in the South Bronx. People there
24 choose to affiliate themselves with the
25 Democrats and it's nearly impossible to draw a
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1 district that would be competitive if you say
2 Democrat versus Republican. Now, on the other
3 hand I happen to come from a district that's
4 traditionally Republican and they have been
5 voting Republican since Abe Lincoln was
6 President of the United States and I don't
7 know how competitive my competitors are, they
8 always seem to be pretty competitive and I
9 have to get out and hustle to get reelected
10 every time as a Democrat there, but we don't
11 spend a lot of money. We spend a lot of time,
12 a lot of shoe leather and that district is
13 very competitive. But, it's not competitive
14 because of the way the districts are redrawn.
15 It's competitive because of the way the people
16 have chosen to associate themselves
17 politically.
18 Now, after this redistricting the
19 district that I currently represent will be
20 more Republican than it is today and I can't
21 do anything about that. You'd think as a
22 Democrat if I could I would. But, I know that
23 I can't do that. It's going to become more
24 Republican than it was in the last election.
25 So, I just put that on the record because I
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1 think it's important that we not allow the
2 statement of the study of NYPIRG to go
3 unchallenged.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very
5 much. Donald Davidsen. Welcome.
6
7 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN, Former Commissioner,
8 Agriculture and Markets: Thank you.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Commissioner,
10 welcome. One of your former colleagues said we
11 should really grill you. So, be prepared.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: It wasn't him.
13 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: I urge you to
14 have mercy on a poor retired senior citizen.
15 But, good afternoon Chairman Skelos and
16 Chairman Parment and my former colleague,
17 Chris, who was so nice to me. Not that
18 everyone isn't nice, but, they aren't all
19 former colleagues. I thank you for the
20 privilege of addressing this hearing this
21 morning. I can think of no nobler task in a
22 democracy than insuring that the citizens have
23 a fair, equitable representation in your
24 government. You are to be commended for taking
25 time from your busy legislative schedule to
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1 travel New York State to gather facts to
2 support a reapportionment plan that
3 accomplishes this noble purpose of making our
4 government truly representative.
5 The 31st Congressional District is a
6 somewhat unique area. Very large
7 geographically. Lightly populated with most of
8 its residents of moderate to low income. Many
9 of them involved in agricultural. Generally
10 quite conservative. Very likely to be aware of
11 political issues and very likely to vote. They
12 do not feel bound by party affiliation. Former
13 Governor Stan Lundine had a long and
14 distinguished career as our congressman and
15 left to move to a higher office. Similarly,
16 Congressman Houghton has been a highly
17 effective representative since Mr. Lundine
18 left.
19 To split the 31st District and
20 incorporate its parts with the more urban
21 congressional districts would bring a group of
22 very conservative voters to a more liberal
23 population. For the citizens from the 31st
24 District, it would be more difficult to make
25 their voices heard, while the voices of the
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1 citizens of the existing districts would be
2 diluted. Additionally, the poor congressman
3 would have a much more difficult time in
4 representing all of his or her constituents.
5 The current 31st District, while not
6 homogenous in its citizens' views, is at least
7 similar. New York is a state with widely
8 divergent views and population. This district,
9 the 31st District, is an important voice for
10 the very important agricultural industry in
11 New York State and should be maintained. We
12 must recall and remember that agriculture is
13 New York State's largest industry. I urge you
14 to continue the existence of the 31st
15 Congressional District as a vital force
16 representing New Yorkers' rural views.
17 I appreciate the opportunity to bring
18 this matter to your attention. I can tell you
19 that in my experience as Commissioner of
20 Agricultural that agricultural does not get
21 the representation in New York that it really
22 deserves. And that is not because of any lack
23 of interest on the part of its congressional
24 delegation, but rather a fact that they are
25 bussier than heck, with more work than they
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1 can handle and for many of them there just
2 isn't time and there isn't the understanding
3 of the agricultural community. So I think this
4 is a very important issue. It's important
5 beyond the boundaries of the 31st District.
6 It's important to all of New York State and
7 agriculture and it's for our representation in
8 Washington. Thank you.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Yes.
10 Commissioner, you served as a member of the
11 New York State assembly and in that service
12 you represented Steuben and parts of other
13 counties, am I correct?
14 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Yes.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: What were the
16 other areas?
17 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: At one time it
18 was Steuben and Yates and at another point it
19 was Steuben and Schuyler and I don't know why
20 it was done except maybe to see if everyone
21 was paying attention.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Well, I will ask
23 a question just to try to get an idea of the
24 sense of people in Steuben County. Who they
25 would prefer to associate with in regard to
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1 the adjoining counties, given the fact that to
2 preserve a district, configured in a similar
3 manner to the current 31st Congressional
4 District we'll have to reach out and add
5 approximately 80,000 people. In your service
6 in the assembly, did you find Yates and
7 Schuyler to be similar to Steuben in needs and
8 attitudes and what they expected of you as a
9 legislative representative?
10 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Very much so.
11 And I would expand on that. I think much of
12 the Southern Tier is very similar in
13 population to Syracuse and political views. As
14 you know and others may not know, that the
15 district includes Cataraugus and Chautauqua,
16 Alleghany, Steuben, Chemung, Tioga, Yates,
17 parts of Seneca, Cayuga and Tompkins. So it's
18 a very large district already and it comprises
19 primarily rural type of interests. It doesn't
20 comprise all of the rural areas of the
21 Southern Tier. There are others such as Tioga
22 and other parts of Tompkins and so forth that
23 are of similar interests that are in other
24 congressional districts. But, I think that the
25 view of the people in that area is very much
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1 similar. Obviously you wouldn't move any
2 further to the west unless you take part of
3 Pennsylvania. But, to the east there are areas
4 that are populated by rural agricultural
5 communities that I think would feel
6 comfortable included in with a 31st or a new
7 29th Congressional District.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Would you
9 include Ithaca as a representative area in the
10 Southern Tier?
11 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Well, I think
12 all of Tompkins County is primarily rural.
13 Ithaca is a small city. Last I knew it was
14 roughly 20,000. It certainly is agriculturally
15 oriented, having both the New York State
16 College of agriculture and New York State
17 College of Veterinary Medicine located there.
18 Because of that there is an interplay between
19 all of the rural Southern Tier counties. So I
20 think that's a natural addition. But I think
21 that fortunately for me and unfortunately for
22 you would be your decision.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: You a
24 Cornellian? I believe you are.
25 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Yes.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Graduate of
2 Veterinary College at Cornell?
3 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Yes.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: And so that's a
5 place that you are familiar with and have an
6 affinity for?
7 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Yes. Best years
8 of my life.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Best years of
10 your life. Well, we are trying to get at what
11 the communities of interest are here.
12 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: There are other
13 ties. Alfred University and Corning, Inc. And
14 Cornell have projects that have worked
15 together with the super computer, with the
16 ceramic corridor project which has an
17 incubator project, so, there is some community
18 of interest besides agricultural. But, I think
19 the similarity in the population.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Okay. Thank you.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Commissioner,
22 you mentioned philosophy -- the city of Ithaca
23 -- the philosophy of the city of Ithaca is
24 similar to that of the people in Allegheny and
25 Steuben County.
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1 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: There are some
2 people who are a little more liberal, yes.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you.
4 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: I think that
5 they are, would be perhaps more, have more in
6 common with the residents of the village of
7 Alfred where Alfred University is, because all
8 of the higher education facilities and
9 probably Boneventure is included, it would be
10 sort of somewhat more liberal. But I think
11 they seem to coexist rather well in the
12 current district and I would look for that to
13 continue.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: The city of
15 Ithaca is in the 31st?
16 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: No.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: No, it's not?
18 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: No, it's rural
19 area, there are several towns that are in the
20 31st.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: In Tompkins
22 County, but not the city of Ithaca.
23 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Not the city of
24 Ithaca.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
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1 Commissioner, you are a great witness and you
2 were experienced in the Ag and Markets
3 Department. Your experienced in the
4 Legislature gives us a real wealth of, sense
5 of this neck of the woods in New York State.
6 We have heard a number of theories today that
7 the County Executive from Onondaga County
8 talked about sort of a concentric circle
9 model. That starts in an urban area like
10 Syracuse and draw outwards. That these are
11 communities regardless of the County. They see
12 Syracuse as sort of a regional center and then
13 if you look at the discussion here we have
14 talked about sort of agricultural as the
15 binding factor in this Southern Tier district,
16 and then the other map that I just call your
17 attention to, you can see it in the Senate
18 districts, as I know you are familiar with,
19 and the congressional districts which sort of
20 create urban population cores and then sort of
21 almost like a stars and bars effect, the stars
22 is the city, the bars running east and west
23 across the western portion of the state, my
24 question to you is: In your judgment is there
25 an advantage in having an agricultural
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1 district and say more urban and such and
2 districts? Does that result in politics which
3 pairs those interests off against one another?
4 Or, would we be better off looking almost on
5 the model that the County Executive talked
6 about, sort of a regional center and
7 concentric circles out that might include
8 rural and suburban interests but nonetheless
9 we agree and the Congress and the Senate that
10 would have all of those interests to take into
11 account? I'm concerned about, for example,
12 just look at the western New York. Pairing
13 off, pairing off an urban Buffalo interest
14 with a rural agricultural Southern Tier
15 interest. In your judgment does it serve the
16 focus of this state to pair those off against
17 one another or to try to merge them into two
18 congresspeople who would have a combination of
19 interests?
20 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: I don't think
21 you are dealing with an all or nothing,
22 personally. I think you can have urban areas
23 that are represent urban issues. At the same
24 time that you can have rural areas that
25 represent rural issues. I don't, I don't see
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1 them as pairing off against each other because
2 their areas of interest are so different that
3 not only are they not paired off against each
4 other, they don't even know the other one's
5 problems exist. So I don't see the
6 competitive situation there. From my
7 perspective I think we have gotten short
8 shrift in Washington because we have had
9 representatives that did not completely
10 understand the rural issues, or because the
11 rural population in their district was so
12 small that it was not a significant portion of
13 their representative duties. For instance, New
14 York State does not have a member or at least
15 did not have a member of the House Agriculture
16 Committee. Yet, this is our largest industry.
17 We are one of the largest agricultural states
18 in the United States and I think it's
19 important that we have at least some of our
20 congressional representatives from rural areas
21 understanding and representing those concerns
22 in Washington. I don't think that diminishes
23 the representation for Buffalo, Rochester,
24 Albany or certainly not New York City. I
25 think it compliments it because all of those
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1 people in those areas like to sit down three
2 times a day and eat meals. All of them don't
3 want to pay the land taxes on all this land up
4 here if it became vacant. So, I think there is
5 an agreement of interest which they may not
6 each recognize, but I think that what, for
7 instance, happens in New York City to the
8 stock market impacts on us, what happens to
9 agriculture up in the rural areas if it price
10 of milk drops to $10 the people are forced off
11 the farm. That is going to effect the urban
12 areas, even though the people at this point
13 and time don't recognize that. So I think, I
14 think we need to give a voice to the rural
15 areas. I think the current 31st District does
16 that. There may be other, in fact I'm sure
17 there may be other areas in New York State
18 where there are similar situations. But, I
19 don't think that by creating districts that
20 totally destroy the rural representation in
21 Washington is going to do New York State
22 overall any good.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one final
24 question. The fact that this district, this
25 Southern Tier district might be 250 miles in
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1 breadth, does that effect your evaluation of
2 that interest, grouping of interest?
3 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: I don't think
4 so. Assemblyman Parment drives that twice a
5 week and I drove a good portion of it twice a
6 week for 12 years. Fortunately, and I give
7 credit to our prior state representatives,
8 that area has very good highways running
9 across it. Communication across the district
10 are excellent. I think there are two ways to
11 look at distance. One is the distance of the
12 geographical distance of a large district and
13 there is a lot of travel and I know Bill
14 understands that and I understand it, but
15 there is also the distance of being, talking
16 to people who don't understand you and if you
17 have to go to Buffalo or Rochester and plead
18 the case of a farmer who has a problem in
19 Steuben County or Schuyler County there is a
20 distance there that is much more difficult to
21 bridge and for that reason I think I would go
22 with the geography before I went with the
23 disparity in interest of the district.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you. Good
25 answer.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Commissioner,
2 pursuing the agricultural theme, I'm looking
3 at the map. I know I have got you at a
4 disadvantage because you don't know it. But
5 abutting the current 31st District we have the
6 counties of Wyoming, Livingston and Ontario to
7 the north and frequently people in the 31st, I
8 personally heard from them, they would prefer
9 to go east than north. Pursuing this
10 agricultural theme, though, as I recall
11 Wyoming County has, if not the largest milk
12 production in New York State, one of the
13 largest milk productions in New York State and
14 the Livingston Ontario County combined is a
15 very fertile and productive agricultural
16 region for various crops. Would it make sense
17 to look at adding those or one of those
18 counties to the 31st?
19 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Well, that
20 certainly would be an option without regard to
21 what districts you would have to take them
22 from. I would say that there is probably more
23 similar interest with Tioga and Broome County
24 and, in fact, Tompkins County in the fact that
25 the agriculture in those counties tends to be
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1 smaller family farms that are not partly
2 because of the actual geography of the land,
3 and I think from what I know of that there
4 would be more similar interest going to the
5 east. The Wyoming County and up along, it
6 certainly is a good agricultural area, but the
7 agriculture is somewhat different than what
8 you see in the Southern Tier area.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: You are familiar
11 with the 24th District, some part as well,
12 where I live and across, Sheldon Hager has a
13 veterinary practice up there and you were
14 there during the ice storm. From what you
15 know of the 24th and indeed the 22nd,
16 represented by Congressman Sweeney, those are
17 also rural areas. Do they have any, does the
18 31st have any particular characteristics that
19 make it specifically different or would you
20 say that you have analyzed in this case also
21 preserving the 22nd and 24th as rural
22 districts?
23 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Well, I
24 certainly think that in your considerations it
25 would be appropriate to look at other
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1 districts while the 31st is certainly unique;
2 in the southern part of the state, I recognize
3 that -- you don't have to drive very far up
4 in St. Lawrence and Lewis Counties to realize
5 that's also a very rural area. And the more
6 voices that we get in Washington that would
7 promote our biggest industry certainly that
8 would be the appropriate thing to do. I don't
9 think that that in any way diminishes the
10 voice of other areas. I think the more urban
11 areas certainly they deserve their
12 representation and I think at this point in
13 time they get very good representation. But I
14 think for a state such as New York, if they
15 turned out to have three or four or five
16 rural, rurally oriented seats out of 29 I
17 think that would not be an inordinante
18 number. In fact, I think that would be
19 probably a little low. I don't think you can
20 ever get enough seats that would truly
21 represent the importance of agriculture in the
22 rural industry in Washington. But, I think
23 that certainly we should not ignore that. I
24 think we should where we can make sure that
25 the people who are of similar interest be
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1 considered and to be in similar districts.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Would you go so
3 far as to say, and I don't want to put words
4 in your mouth, but, that there are a thousand
5 different ways you can begin this process and
6 I think any of us who have gone through it
7 recognize that the choice you make as to where
8 to begin may very well dictate the outcome?
9 Once you start building these blocks there are
10 only so many ways you can put the rest of it
11 together. Would you go so far as to say that
12 we ought to adopt as an initial practice that
13 we ought to draw the rural districts we can
14 first and then proceed into the urban areas?
15 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Well, I would
16 think that certainly if I were doing it I
17 would draw a number of maps and that would
18 certainly be one I would look at. I think
19 that a general sketch of New York with using a
20 variety of criteria, creating a variety of
21 maps to see which are practical and totally,
22 and which are totally impractical would be the
23 appropriate way to start and I think that's
24 one of them that should be looked at.
25 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Thank you.
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1 MR. DONALD DAVIDSEN: Thank you.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: That concludes
3 our list of witnesses.
4 ASSSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I'm sorry, we
5 had several sign at the door. Nancy K.
6 McCarty.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Is Daniel Gage
8 here? You are submitting your testimony?
9
10 MR. DANIEL GAGE: Yes, sir.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: There is
12 testimony from a letter from Congressman
13 Walsh, I believe. That will be made part of
14 the record and will be submitted to the
15 members of the task force.
16 CONGRESSMAN JAMES T. WALSH, Member of
17 Congress, 25th District: I thank you and
18 other members of the Legislative Task Force
19 for your visit earlier today to Central New
20 York to conduct the first of 11 public
21 hearings on reapportionment. This is an issue
22 of great consequence to state and federal
23 legislators and constituents alike.
24 Mor importantly, this year's
25 reapportionment will have a dramatic impact on
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1 the State of New York and its influence in
2 Washington, DC. As you most likely know, I
3 currently serve as a senior member and
4 subcommittee chair of the House of
5 Representatives Appropriations Committee
6 responsible for setting all federal annual
7 spending priorities. I anticipate that my
8 continued ascension into senior leadership
9 positions on this important panel will assist
10 in counteracting our delegation's diminshed
11 influence due to the elimination of two seats
12 in the 108th Congress.
13 As a Member of Congress first elected in
14 1988, I have been fortunate throughout my
15 tensure to advance legislation significant to
16 my community, region and state. I have
17 sponsored authorizing legislation and secured
18 close to $100 million for the cleanup of
19 Onondaga Lake. Last year, I spearheaded the
20 creation of the Erie Canal National Heritage
21 Corridor from the Capitol region to Lake Erie
22 which over time will provide increased
23 economic development and tourism opportunities
24 to canal communities while preserving this
25 important part of our state's heritage.
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1 My role as Chairman of the House
2 Appropriations Subcommittee on VA/HUD and
3 Independent Agencies (including NASA, FEMA,
4 EPA and the national Science Foundaiton) has
5 enabled me to securemillions of dollars in
6 federal funding for new York educational
7 institutions and scientific research programs
8 within the SUNY system, housing and urban
9 development initiatives, and veterans health
10 centers. Last year, I was able to procure
11 federal resources for New York's apple growers
12 hurt by foreign competitors and
13 weather-related crop losses, and my position
14 allows me to secure annual funding for
15 watershed protection and whole farm management
16 programs to protect public water supplies for
17 Upstate municipalities and the City of New
18 York. In addition, as my subcommittee
19 oversees HUD funding, I was able to exert my
20 influence to bring the Small Cities program
21 under New York State government control where
22 more local impact input can be offered.
23 Currently, New York's 25th Congressional
24 District contains Onondaga and Cortland
25 Counties in their entirety and portions of
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1 Cayuga, Tioga and Broome Counties. As you
2 begin to consider redistricting, I encourage
3 you to keep Central New York counties and the
4 urban centers of Syracuse, Cortland and Auburn
5 within the same Congressional district.
6 Onondaga, Cortland and Cayuga Counties
7 all lie within the Syracuse Metropolitan
8 Statistical Area. All share a single regional
9 economy, media market, and economic growth
10 pattern. Their workforces intermingle, and
11 many Syracuse area workers reside in Cortland
12 and Cayuga Counties and vice versa. It is
13 important to retain the character of the
14 Central New York district. These communities
15 share related needs, and maintaining
16 consistent representation benefits local
17 constituents. Most in Central New York
18 recognize who their Congressional
19 representative is and who they need to contact
20 for assistance with federally-related matters.
21 By keeping the Greater Syracuse area
22 within one district, you will eliminate public
23 confusion over representative, confusion that
24 currently exists in the City of Auburn where
25 three Members of Congress represent city
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1 residents and that formerly existed in
2 Syracuse in the 1970s when the city was split
3 down the middle. The Central New York region
4 will benefit most in the next decade from a
5 district containing all of Onondaga, Cortland
6 and Cayuga Counties as well as portions of
7 other counties within the Finger Lakes area.
8 While my legislative duties in Washington
9 precluded me from tesifying before your panel
10 in person, I hope you will consider these
11 thoughts as you begin to reconfigure Central
12 New York's district. I stand ready to work
13 with you to devise a proposal most beneficial
14 to the people of New York State. Thank you
15 for your leadership on this important issue.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: We also have
17 Harvey Kaufman. We'll make this part of the
18 record also, your testimony. Thank you very
19 much. And Ralph Standbrook.
20 MR. RALPH STANDBROOK: Yes, I would
21 like to speak.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: We appreciate
23 your testimony.
24
25 MS. NANCY K. MC CARTY: Thank you. I'm
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1 Nancy McCarthy. I'm a former elected official.
2 I served as Syracuse City Councilor-At-Large
3 from 1992 through December of 1999.
4 Back in 1992, I think it was March, I
5 spoke before a group like this. The only
6 person I remember from it was Senator
7 Macceola, whom I know is Mayor of Buffalo, who
8 was Mayor of Buffalo, but, we were
9 considerably farther down the line in
10 reapportionment then because I remember
11 looking at a map and making some suggestions.
12 I'm here today basically to talk about
13 keeping communities of interest and not Sam
14 too much our assembly districts in our area.
15 But, as others have suggested, including our
16 County Executive, I think that it's helpful to
17 keep the economic community of interest in the
18 congressional district which is the 25th. I
19 can remember back 20 years ago or so, maybe 30
20 years ago, when we got divided. We were sort
21 of like an eagle. One wing went out someplace
22 near Rochester and we had one wing that went
23 out to Oneonta and that was not very satisfy.
24 So, I think what we have now is more of
25 community of interest. Although, if one wanted
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1 to follow the SMSA and make a piece of Oswego
2 County, because you could argue that the
3 traffic patterns of people who come to
4 Syracuse to work from parts of Cayuga and
5 parts of Madison County and parts of Oswego
6 County are there.
7 But, mainly I'm here to talk about, well,
8 my surprise that we are having here and I got
9 a call yesterday afternoon, someone who found,
10 I downloaded the assembly site and walla, got
11 the notice which apparently was posted the day
12 before. It's a nice notice, but lucky me, I
13 got the call. Anyway, I guess I would like to
14 see that we need to pay attention to things
15 like access. Making sure that people know. I
16 know this is the first thing. But, I'm not
17 sure that 11 o'clock in the morning or quarter
18 of one is the best time. It would seem to me
19 as we did, seemed to me in 1992, we had them
20 late in the afternoon and early in the
21 evening. I guess also I would plead with you
22 to take a look at the figures for the City of
23 Syracuse because everybody is saying everybody
24 is losing population. Well, if you use the
25 printout from the SOCPA, which you can get, it
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1 might be a more revised one, but this is
2 4/11/2001, which shows the city council
3 districts by ward and what translate in terms
4 of ward to assembly district, one can see that
5 there is a slight variation between some of
6 the districts. That is, all together there is
7 not much. But there is maybe 5% in the second
8 which is sort of near the west side and 2% on
9 the University innercity area. But by and
10 large the City of Syracuse may not, they
11 might, but they may not choose to reapportion
12 the council districts because they don't have
13 to, because our population is within bounds. I
14 went over to SOCPA this morning to find out
15 what was going on in Onondaga and they said
16 they knew it was going up, but everybody at
17 SOCPA, Mr. Diwani, the regional man in charge,
18 couldn't find anything else out. But my sense
19 is if you are looking at say the 119th
20 Assembly District where I live, it's made up
21 of three towns: Onondaga, Dewitt and
22 Lafayette, and major portions of the east side
23 of the City of Syracuse and the center city.
24 At the time in 1992 there was an effort made
25 to make sure that persons who were minority
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1 persons, persons of color, were included in
2 that one district all together as opposed to
3 staggering them into the 120th where they
4 would be pretty well isolated. And so I think
5 that's a good rule to follow. That is, you
6 have a community interest of people who are,
7 who have churches and institutions and
8 businesses and communities which make sense
9 and for whom there has been a sense of
10 camaraderie and feeling of belonging for these
11 past roughly nine years. And so I think it
12 would be a mistake to come reaching in and
13 trying to take out this and that, because I
14 think what we have in the city looks pretty
15 clear from the SOCPA that both the 120th and
16 119th are in pretty good shape. Now, I don't
17 know about the 121st and I don't know about
18 the 118th. The 118th is north and 121st is
19 around the city. But, what I would say is, I
20 would plead with you that we have hearings
21 that allow people to come in, I think the use
22 of the Internet is wonderful. I worry, my
23 rumors going around that we may lose not just
24 one Upstate congressional seat, we may lose
25 two in New York State or lose two, and that we
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1 might lose some Assembly and Senate seats is
2 frightening some of us because we have built
3 up a relationship with persons who help our
4 schools, who help our city, who help our
5 neighborhoods, who help us get money for
6 roads. Some people dismiss this as pork. But,
7 this is constituent service and helps cities
8 like Syracuse among others to do what needs to
9 be done, to provide the services that people
10 need. And so, I would urge you to do maybe
11 outreach, let people know where we are going
12 to meet, other than a day or so ahead, and to
13 attempt to meaningfully say to folks we'd like
14 to know what you really think about this and I
15 guess the more public we can be the better.
16 For much of my previous life before I was
17 elected I was a Professor of Social Science at
18 Onondaga Community College. I was there for 31
19 years. Before that I was in Cortland and Iowa,
20 so I have an academic interest. In fact, when
21 I was in graduate school in 1955 we all had to
22 read Grand McConnell which was the big book on
23 reapportionment and it still is basically that
24 you do the concentric and you try to maintain
25 community of interest. So, lots has changed in
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1 the past 45 or 50 years, but I don't know that
2 that has changed. So I urge you to pay
3 attention to community of interest and to try
4 to maintain the wholeness between.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: May I just ask a
7 question?
8 MS. NANCY K. MC CARTY: Sure.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Maybe you don't
10 need to amplify on it but you touched on, and
11 I think you said "we have built up
12 relationships with these people who represent
13 us", and I just wanted to pick up on that
14 because I think you have touched upon a very,
15 very important distinction between the way it
16 is and the way very often the media and even
17 those of us in government refer to it. I mean,
18 very often you talked about, you'll hear, you
19 talked about the districts in the city of the
20 119th and very often we'd say is that your
21 district, Joan? Colloquially we or the media
22 will call it "Joan's district". But it's
23 important to understand it isn't Joan's
24 district, it's the people's district who live
25 in it. And when we talk about reapportioning
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1 and we heard, the Common Cause professor was
2 here, because both Common Cause and NYPIRG and
3 several others and many in the media look at
4 redistricting as if it was a process of
5 deciding where we are going to be and it's so
6 important it seems to me and I hope that I'm
7 reading you right, that we understand it isn't
8 about us, it's about the communities and their
9 ability to elect people to represent them.
10 MS. NANCY K. MC CARTY: And as it turns
11 out, the City of Syracuse is represented by
12 two Assemblypersons, Assemblyman Magnarelli in
13 the 120th and Assemblywoman Christenson in the
14 119th and that works very well. It's not like
15 an eagle with two wings that you can't find,
16 as we had in the congressional. But this works
17 very well for our schools and our communities
18 and I think it's something that we ought to
19 keep in mind when we are doing your business
20 and it was a pleasure to be here and I just, I
21 know next year at this time there will be a
22 different color card with different lines on
23 it. So thank you very much.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Thank you.
25 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, next
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1 witness is Harvey Kaufman.
2
3 MR. HARVEY KAUFMAN: Good afternoon.
4 Thank you for allowing me to be here. My focus
5 is more on your state responsibilities rather
6 than the federal ones, even though
7 parenthetically I have lived in Cortland
8 County from the time Sam Stratton represented
9 us, who was from Schenectady and we went all
10 the way east from Schenectady County to
11 Cortland and now we are north and south. We
12 have Democrats and Republicans and my
13 observation, it wasn't geography because Sam
14 did a marvelous job in representing us. It was
15 more the community of interest of the groups
16 along the way and if you look at a map between
17 Schenectady and Cortland you see mostly all
18 counties so, we did have a community of
19 interest. I think probably as you all know
20 that's the important issue. My concern, and I
21 work at Cornell, I live in Cortland, and I
22 don't think incumbency is a dirty word, I
23 think we made the point very well. I have had
24 the obligation in my, both my public and my
25 private endeavors in the community to work
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1 with representatives of government, and get to
2 know them and their needs and informing them
3 of our needs, so they can serve us better in
4 developing those relationships so they know
5 the institutions, they know the people, they
6 know the needs, they know the availability of
7 resources, they know what they can do to serve
8 you is most important. And I guess I really
9 don't understand why incumbency is a dirty
10 word when you do have, when you do get
11 validated every two years. If people choose
12 not to like you, you know, well somebody else
13 will be there. So, my concern is, in this
14 instance, I have lauded the Senators who have
15 represented us in Cortland County from Tarky
16 Lombardi down to Jim Seward, and our concern
17 is that we remain in a rural setting. Cortland
18 County has 40,000 people and in state terms
19 it's small and we have a sense that we are
20 going to be an appendage somewhere, and if we
21 can't stay where we are, then certainly our
22 request would be that we move north and east.
23 Senator Hoffmann is Chair of the Senate
24 Agriculture Committee, Agra business is the
25 number one economic driving force in our
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1 County. We have a community of interest in the
2 northern portion because our kids go to BOCES,
3 our kids play in the leagues up here. Big
4 culture activities. The newspapers and media
5 market, TVs, video, have all made this a
6 community of interest for us. So I would hope
7 as part as Jim Seward is to us, as Assembly
8 Luster is to us, as Congressman Walsh is to
9 us, that we receive, continue to receive
10 services of people who understand who we are
11 and what our needs are and as someone
12 mentioned before bringing in, in some rural
13 areas of our state, large urban populations.
14 I'm a product of New York City so I understand
15 that. Our needs are just too unique and too
16 different. So I hope that is respected when
17 you finally do what you do.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one quick
19 question, since you give us something of
20 historical when you talked about Sam
21 Strattono's district which was the long snake
22 that went through Central New York. Is it your
23 sense that, and you have heard the discussion
24 today about the 31st Congressional District,
25 where the Southern Tier ends up, is that
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1 geography the distance that you talked about?
2 Just give me a sense of if I said we can move
3 north/south and end up with a district that
4 was rural would you move north/south or
5 east/west? Given Cortland County as the
6 starting point. Given Senator Seward.
7 MR. HARVEY KAUFMAN: Well, if I were
8 in the 31st Congressional District I can't
9 speak for them, but certainly I think the less
10 geographic area as long as there is a
11 community of interest makes the most sense and
12 as Assemblyman Parment said when you move
13 north out of that area, that's rural country.
14 I work in, my entire work is in rural areas of
15 New York State and it doesn't get much more
16 rural than they are and I think there is a
17 community of interest. But those obviously are
18 the choices they feel they are aligned to. You
19 move into Tompkins County and Ithaca where I
20 work every day and, you know, Steuben County
21 is to Ithaca like probably, you know, New York
22 City is to Kinderhook. They are just not on
23 the same page.
24 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. Our
25 next witness is Ralph W. Standbrook.
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1 MR. RALPH W. STANDBROOK: Good afternoon
2 Senators, Assemblymen, fellow legislators,
3 guests. I thank the New York State Legislature
4 and my colleagues in the Onondaga County
5 Legislature for hosting this important hearing
6 today and for giving me the opportunity to
7 address the critical issue of congressional
8 reapportionment.
9 I have served as Chairman of the Cayuga
10 County Legislature since 1994. During that
11 time, Cayuga County has relied on the power of
12 our three Congressmen to help those of us in
13 local government bring increased services and
14 opportunities to our county residents while
15 keeping local taxes down.
16 When I consider what congressional monies
17 have done for our county, the impact on our
18 communities and our people is tremendous.
19 While we, as a county, have been
20 fortunate to have had three congressmen for
21 the past 10 years, I truly believe we would be
22 better served with one. Those of you who have
23 seen the map of Cayuga County realize that our
24 shape, thin at the top and large at the
25 bottom, with 70 miles in between, is a lot of
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1 ground to cover effectively.
2 People in Cayuga County are politically
3 active and they like to see their
4 congressional representative in person. We
5 usually have good-sized turnouts when our
6 Congressmen visit and our citizens aren't shy
7 about asking questions. As any of our three
8 congressmen can tell you, participatory
9 democracy is alive and well in Cayuga County,
10 even though it's sometimes hard for many of
11 our residents to figure out which of the three
12 congressmen represent them.
13 But I do believe that our county would
14 best be served with one congressman, because
15 the direction we are going in requires us to
16 think regional, to be successful for the next
17 decade.
18 Cayuga County has become an integral part
19 of the Syracuse regional economy. The 200 year
20 old political boundaries that our pioneer
21 ancestors drew to divide up the wilderness
22 after the American Revolution have, for all
23 practical purposes, been erased by mass
24 communications, sophisticated technology and
25 four lane highways.
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1 Virtually every home and business in
2 Cayuga County relies on Syracuse media for
3 news. Auburn once boasted three radio stations
4 that were all locally produced live
5 broadcasts, with real local news every hour.
6 Now, they stations are all automated and have
7 very little local favor.
8 And just as the 82,000 residents of
9 Cayuga County receive news from Syracuse, so
10 do they look more and more to Syracuse for
11 regionalized shopping, medical care, federal
12 services and the like. With the massive
13 expansion of the Carousel Center officially
14 underway, that interdependence will become
15 more and more pronounced.
16 As we enter the 21st Century, we all have
17 to admit that we are regional, rather than a
18 rural or a small city economy. Having served
19 on the Central New York Regional Planning
20 Commission opened my eyes to that concept many
21 years ago.
22 And that is why I'm advocating today for
23 a single congressman for Cayuga County and the
24 surrounding Syracuse area. Our growing
25 regional economic interdependence would be
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1 slowed for the next 10 years if Cayuga County
2 was divided into three congressional districts
3 as it is now.
4 Here are a couple of examples. As I
5 indicated earlier, we currently have three
6 Congressman. The entire southern part of
7 Cayuga County, along with a small portion of
8 the City of Auburn, has been the northernmost
9 part of a Southern Tier District whose media
10 and base of operation has been located in
11 Corning. While the Congressman has been
12 helpful with several issues over the last 10
13 years, his accessibility to the people of that
14 part of the district has been limited by the
15 nature of his realm. The travel time from one
16 end of the district, Jamestown, New York to
17 Auburn, New York, is roughly a four to four
18 and a half hour trip.
19 The regional economic interests of Cayuga
20 County, as compared to Corning are simply
21 non-existent.
22 The Town of Aurelius and a portion of the
23 western part of the City of Auburn are
24 represented, are at the extreme eastern end of
25 a congressional district whose headquarters
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1 are located in suburban Buffalo, approximately
2 120 miles away. Once again, while the
3 Congressman from this area has be very helpful
4 with some of our local issues, we are still at
5 the edge of his district, with little, if any,
6 economic or media interests in common, except
7 for the Buffalo Bills -- and there are NFL
8 blackout issues associated with them, simply
9 because the power of broadcast signals
10 overrule county lines and dictate economic
11 decisions.
12 A small city like Auburn does not need
13 the confusion of being divided into three
14 congressional districts. Neither does Cayuga
15 County.
16 Our citizens need to have the consistency
17 of a single member of congress who has the
18 daily pulse of the Syracuse and Central New
19 York region. Many of our county residents use
20 federal services in Syracuse on a daily basis,
21 such as the VA Hospital, as well as Social
22 Security, Medicare, the U. S. Department of
23 Agricultural and others that have slowly
24 evolved in centralized federal centers like
25 the James Hanley Building in downtown
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1 Syracuse.
2 A single Congressman can reduce public
3 confusion and hopefully increase public
4 participation in federal issues. A
5 congressional district drawn to fit the
6 Syracuse region will provide the residents of
7 that district with what they need the most:
8 One, streamlined access point into the federal
9 government.
10 It just makes sense.
11 A view of the Finger Lakes from one of
12 the satellite images accessible through our
13 new NASA RACNE Center shows no county lines.
14 Instead, it shows the the city and suburbs of
15 Syracuse extending its highways in all four
16 directions, as the hub of the New York State
17 transportation corridor. And Cayuga County is
18 now part of that.
19 Without those 200 year old artificial
20 borders, the view from space gives us the real
21 image we seldom see on a flat map; that of a
22 growing, expanding metropolitan area,
23 surrounded by the rich beauty of the Finger
24 Lakes and Lake Ontario. By law, we have to
25 draw boundaries around and through this area,
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1 and it just seems logical and natural to
2 create a congressional district that fits the
3 growth pattern of the Syracuse SMSA.
4 To divide this economic area, or chop up
5 a County like Cayuga into several pieces,
6 thereby creating the extreme edge of two or
7 three congressional districts can only get in
8 the way of the economic growth that has
9 already begun here.
10 As we all know, the business of
11 government is to move people and communities
12 forward for the general betterment of all, at
13 a reasonable cost to the public. We are all
14 well aware of how fragile a balancing act that
15 is.
16 Let's not complicate matters anymore by
17 dividing a successful region into inefficient
18 parts.
19 Therefore, I respectfully ask this Task
20 Force to create a single congressional
21 district for the greater Syracuse area that
22 would include all of Cayuga County and also
23 there is a resolution that was unanimously
24 adopted supporting this.
25 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very
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1 much.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one point.
3 Thank you very much. Could you tell me what
4 counties are in the Central New York Regional
5 Planning Commission that's referred to in your
6 statement.
7 MR. HARVEY KAUFMAN: Yes, I can.
8 Cayuga County, Oswego County, Madison County,
9 Onondaga County, and just recently Cortland
10 County joined.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay, and is all
12 of Cayuga County in the Syracuse SMSA?
13 MR. HARVEY KAUFMAN: All of our
14 County is.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is in the
16 Syracuse SMSA?
17 MR. HARVEY KAUFMAN: Yes.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: We have a card
19 from Chuck Mason, Member of the City Council,
20 City of Auburn.
21
22 MR. CHARLES MASON: Good afternoon
23 and thank you very much. I just signed up when
24 I got here today. My name is Chuck Mason. I'm
25 a member of the City Council of the City of
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1 Auburn, New York and as I entered the room
2 today I heard somebody say that hopefully,
3 something to the effect that hopefully this
4 time around during the reapportionment
5 protest, the redistricting protest, that the
6 situation in Auburn, New York would be avoided
7 in the future in regards to the congressional
8 district, and in the City of Auburn we are in
9 the situation where we are divided into three
10 congressional districts and fortunately for us
11 one of the three members of the Congress that
12 represents us has really kind of adopted the
13 entire City of Auburn and has really looked
14 out for it. But I do know that it's very
15 difficult for us to keep in contact with all
16 three and to even have any issues of relevance
17 with all three. In the City of Auburn our life
18 style and our, all the work that we do at the
19 city for economic development purposes and
20 everything has to do with the Central New York
21 and the Finger Lakes region. We really live
22 east to west in Auburn, New York. For economic
23 development purposes we are part of the
24 Central New York Regional Compact as has been
25 mentioned earlier here today and practically
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1 all of our activity is with Onondaga County on
2 a regional basis. For tourism development we
3 are part of the Finger Lakes region, but where
4 we really fit in is with the northern Finger
5 Lakes. The southern Finger Lakes and Southern
6 Tier for us is really kind of a different
7 world. We really live in that east/west
8 direction from like Seneca County to Cayuga
9 County, to Onondaga County. Many of our human
10 service agencies in Auburn, New York are
11 titled, you know, Cayuga-Seneca Community
12 Action Agency; Cayuga-Seneca ARC and so on.
13 There is so many places that we share on an
14 east/west direction so, personally where I
15 live from the City of Auburn is in the 31st
16 District. But I can tell you one thing that I,
17 as a current resident of the 31st District
18 that do not want to see the 31st District,
19 congressional district saved. I would like to
20 see the City of Auburn drawn into one
21 congressional district and I think the most
22 appropriate way for us to head would be east.
23 Currently, we are latched up to the 25th
24 Congressional District.
25 So, just to wrap up my thoughts, just to
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1 sum up for you again, you know, in Auburn we
2 really live east/west. It's because of the
3 Thruway. It's because of Route 20. It's
4 because of being in the Syracuse media market.
5 And it's because of the relationship we have
6 with our Congressman from the 25th District,
7 and our proximity within the northern Finger
8 Lakes towns. There is really a link that goes
9 from Rochester to Canandaigua to Geneva to
10 Seneca Falls to Auburn to Skaneateles to
11 Syracuse. And Route 20 links it all and the
12 Thruway links it all and that's how people
13 live, really on a daily basis. You know, we
14 live east/west. We don't live in the city of
15 Auburn. We live east/west, we don't live
16 north/south, really. And it's because of the
17 Finger Lakes. You know, the byways in the
18 Finger Lakes Region, the highways and the
19 transportation predominantly goes east/west.
20 So, all the development is in the northern
21 part of the Finger Lakes or all the
22 development is in the southern part of the
23 Finger Lakes, and with all due respect to the
24 campaign that's here today for the 31st
25 District I can honestly say we are not best
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1 served and we'll not be best served in the
2 City of Auburn in the 31st District for
3 congressional purposes. We are best served, we
4 would be best served in the 25th congressional
5 district and as far as the other districts go,
6 for senatorial district and assembly district,
7 I think it best, we are best represented in
8 districts that attain and obtain that
9 east/west flow. So that's all I have for today
10 and I thank you very much for taking the time
11 to listen to me.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, thank you very
14 much and we appreciate everybody attending.
15 And tomorrow we'll have another hearing in the
16 city of Binghamton and if anybody wishes to
17 attend there, we welcome you. Thank you very
18 much.
19 *******************************
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1 C E R T I F I C A T I O N
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3
4
5 This is to certify that I am an Official Senior
6 Court Reporter of the State of New York (retired); that
7 I attended and reported the foregoing proceedings; that
8 the foregoing is a true, accurate and correct transcript
9 of the proceedings had therein, to the best of my
10 knowledge and ability. The indication of double dashes
11 [--] within this transcript indicate an interruption in
12 speaking or incomplete thought, and under no
13 circumstances is an indication or an omission of the
14 spoken word from this transcript.
15
16
17
________________________________________
18 David T. Robinson,
Official Court Reporter
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21 DATED: May 14th, 2001
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