1 
2
3         LEGISLATIVE TASK FORCE ON DEMOGRAPHIC
4             RESEARCH AND REAPPORTIONMENT
5
6   CO-CHAIRMEN: SENATOR DEAN G. SKELOS
7                     ASSEMBLYMAN WILLIAM PARMENT
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9
10
11
12                    Lehman College, Carman Hall
13                    Bronx, New York
14
15                    June 8, 2001
16                    12:15 P.M.
17
18                    Robert J. Pollack
19                    Stenographer
20
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23
24
25
             EN-DE REPORTING, A Spherion Agency
                       (212) 962-2961

1
2 APPEARANCES:
3 CO-CHAIRMAN SENATOR DEAN G. SKELOS
4 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAM L. PARMENT
5 SENATOR RICHARD A. DOLLINGER
6 VINCENT P. BRUY, Member of Task Force
7 ROMAN B. HEDGES, Member of Task Force
8 DEBRA A. LEVINE, Co-Executive Director
9 LEWIS A. HOPPE, Co-Executive Director
10
11 SPEAKERS:
12 JOSEPHINE DANCE, NAACP
13 ANNA CAPELL, Handicapped Adult Association
14 JULIAN MCDAVID
15 DAVID BERRELL, Eastchester Heights Tenants
16 Advisory Board
17 ROBERT RIVERS JUNIOR, Seaton Falls Neighborhood
18 Association
19 GLORIA WALTON, Co-op City
20 MONIQUE JOHNSON, President, Co-op City Tenants
21 Association;
22 TONY KANATTA, President, Waterbury LaSalle
23 Community Association
24 RABBI SHELDON STEINIG, principal, Beth Miriam
25 Beth Jacob School

3
1
2 BRAD SILVER, Bronx Jewish Community Council
3 DAVID EDELSTEIN, Pelham Parkway Jewish
4 Commuminity Council
5 CARL S. JENKINS, AALDEF
6 JOHN ROSE, Gloria Wise Boys and Girls Club-
7 MAURICE LABONNE, Montifore Medical Center
8 ASSEMBLYMAN JEFFREY DINOWITZ
9 DANIEL FIGUEROA III, Community Democratic Club
10 LUIS DIAZ, NETS
11 LIZANDRA MARTINEZ PETER RIVERA, NETS
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PETER M. RIVERA
13 CONNIE REILLY 
14 HARRY FADER
15 EGIDIO SEMENTILLI, Bronx Italian American
16 Cultural Association
17 DR. STEVEN BERNARDO, Assoction of Riverdale
18 Cooperatives
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: Good
3 afternoon. My name is Bill Parment, and I am
4 a member of the New York State Assembly. I am
5 co-chair of the Legislative Task Force on
6 Demographic Research and Reapportionment. We
7 are gathered here today to take testimony from
8 the public and interested individuals on the
9 redistricting plans which must be drawn for
10 the New York State Assembly, the New York
11 State Senate, and the lines for the New York's
12 congressional delegation in the Federal House
13 of Representatives.
14 This Task Force is appointed
15 pursuant to law, it consists of six members;
16 three appointed from the State Senate, three
17 appointed from the State Assembly. We will
18 take testimony, and would request that you
19 speak directly into the microphones. We are
20 flattered to be on C-Span, and the enhanced
21 needs of telecommunication are that we need to
22 have you directly speak into the microphones.
23 I am joined by our cochairman, Dean Skelos.
24 Senator, I will turn it over to you.
25 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: It is good to

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 be in the Bronx. As you know, we have had a
3 number of hearings at this point. Again, as
4 was mentioned, it is getting input from the
5 public on how they would like to see us draw
6 the Congressional, State Senate and Assembly
7 lines, taking into account obviously the
8 United States Constitution; one person one
9 vote, the New York State Constitution, the
10 Voting Rights Act, and I can go on and on.
11 The most important phase is to
12 listen to you. This is not necessarily an
13 incumbency driven hearing. I know that many
14 people wish to speak about their incumbents
15 positively, and of course we will allow you to
16 do this, but it is more about communities of
17 interests and how you would like to see this
18 drawn in this area. Richard.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
20 Dean. I am Senator Rick Dollinger. I
21 represent Rochester and two of its suburbs, so
22 I am a long way from home, but it is good to
23 be in the Bronx.
24 As Senator Skelos and Assemblyman
25 Parment described it, this hearing is to talk
 
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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 about the configuration of districts, to talk
3 communities throughout this state and how they
4 should combined or joined in a particular
5 Assembly District or Congressional District or
6 Senate District.
7 I will just add that I am
8 encouraged. I know that the Commission or
9 Task Force has scheduled the hearing or a
10 meeting of the Task Force for next Tuesday in
11 Albany to talk about a number of our protocols
12 for this redistricting process, and I am
13 pleased that that hearing is going to occur,
14 and I want to thank both Chairs. I am ready
15 to listen to people talk about their community
16 in the Bronx, and it is ways away from my
17 home, so this will be instructive for me as we
18 continue this process of determining once
19 every 10 years what the configuration of our
20 29 Congressional Districts and our Assembly
21 and Senate districts. Thank you,
22 Mr. Chairman.
23 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Assemblyman
24 Ortloff.
25 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Thank you,

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 Mr. Chairman. My name is Chris Ortloff, and I
3 am the Assemblyman from Plattsburg, New York.
4 It is important that we all begin a hearing
5 process like this by reminding ourselves what
6 this is all about, as my colleagues have ably
7 so stated.
8 First of all, we are here because
9 the Constitution says we have to be. The
10 Supreme Court said we have to be. Back in
11 1964 when they ruled that new information from
12 each new census requires not only the congress
13 to be redistricted but also the State
14 Legislatures. So we are redrawing
15 Congressional District lines, State Senate and
16 Assembly District lines.
17 The lines are just lines on paper.
18 New York is a big state, but it is like every
19 other state, made up of small communities.
20 Communities where people know their neighbors,
21 know their shops, know their schools, know
22 their public institutions. When those
23 communities are together in a district and
24 empowered to elect people of their choice, the
25 system is working. When those communities are

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 broken up, whether intentionally or
3 inadvertently, the system is not working,
4 because those people in those communities are
5 not empowered.
6 So our goal here today is to hear
7 from you about your communities, about what
8 makes your communities up, to educate us and
9 the other members of the public about what
10 areas on the map are areas that work together,
11 think together, act together or want to act
12 together. So we eagerly await your testimony
13 to tell us those things so that we can
14 identify the communities, respect their
15 boundaries and their characters and empower
16 the people. Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: Does anyone
18 else wish to be heard?
19 MR. BRUY: It's good to be in The
20 Bronx, and I would like to thank everyone for
21 the comments already made.
22 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: We will go
23 down the list, and then we will go through the
24 list once again if an individual isn't here
25 yet.

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Chris Strunk?
3 Josephine Dance. If a person is unable to
4 come down, we will provide a wireless mike so
5 that you can testify.
6 MS. DANCE: My name is Josephine
7 Dance, and I am from Co-op City in The Bronx.
8 Our wish is that our Senatorial, Assembly and
9 Congressional Districts remain the same.
10 I know that one of the districts is
11 very large, but I hope that if there is any
12 deleting, that Co-op City is not the one to be
13 deleted from any of those areas. We just hope
14 that, and this is the wish of many, many
15 people in Co-op City, that it remain the same;
16 Senatorial, Assembly and Congressional
17 districts.
18 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you,
19 ma'am. Jean Bruce?
20 MS. DANCE: She is ill.
21 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Egidio
22 Sementilli? Louis Lynch? Michael Benjamin?
23 Ms. Escolastico? Floninda Reynoso? Edwin
24 Ortiz? Anna Capell?
25 MS. CAPELL: Good afternoon,

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 ladies and gentlemen. My name is Anna
3 Capell. I represent the Handicapped Adult
4 Association, Incorporated in Co-op City.
5 Before I go further with my
6 statement, which is brief, I feel that I need
7 to bring to each of you a reminder that when
8 public hearings are held, it includes the
9 public, and the public includes disabled
10 people as well as everyone else. We need
11 better access at this facility. Then I will
12 go first go on with my statement.
13 That is to say that we the officer.
14 and members of the Handicapped Adults
15 Association, Incorporated in Co-op City wish
16 to have our voices heard in expressing our
17 need to have all of Co-op City remain within
18 one district.
19 We as cooperators throughout all of
20 Co-op City have many and various reasons why
21 we do not see an advantage in redistricting
22 lines that would divide or sever any portion
23 of Co-op City. A few of the many reasons are
24 all of the New York State Mitchellama Housing
25 Developments, Co-op City, is under one

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 management, namely Riverbay Corporation.
3 Incidentally, they have testimony
4 here today. I think you have a copy before
5 you. We are governed by the Board of
6 Directors elected by the cooperators who live
7 in this development. The cooperative
8 disseminates information together with paid
9 advertising on a weekly basis delivered to
10 each apartment door through one house organ,
11 the Co-op City Times. Legislative
12 redistricting would be divisive to this
13 governing body and have an effect on the
14 entire community of Cooperators.
15 The second item is that
16 redistricting could also infringe upon all
17 city services within the Co-op City community,
18 such as in the road, highways improvements,
19 police department, fire department, school
20 systems, et cetera. I implore you gentleman
21 and ladies, serious thought must be given in
22 consideration of the redistricting lines of
23 Co-op City. Thank you very much for
24 listening.
25 If I may have your indulgence, I

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 have the Riverbay statement if you want me to
3 read it now or later at your discretion.
4 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: You can read it
5 now or later or submit it and have it be part
6 of the record. Whatever is convenient for
7 you.
8 MS. CAPELL: It is on the table
9 already. I do have a copy in front of me.
10 This is on behalf of Riverbay Corporation.
11 That is the managing agent for Co-op City.
12 This is a statement of the Riverbay
13 Corporation to the New York State Legislative
14 Task Force on demographic Research and
15 Reapportionment dated June 7, 2001.
16 Riverbay Corporation, the corporate
17 name for the Co-op City community represents
18 the 50,000 shareholder residents who reside in
19 the massive housing complex built in the late
20 1960s. Since that time, Riverbay has
21 consistently articulated for the needs of the
22 community, including an equitable voice in all
23 arenas of influence and power.
24 Riverbay Corporation is concerned
25 that any reapportionment plan and envisioning

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 dividing any part of the housing development
3 from the other would be inimical to the
4 interests of the corporation which manages the
5 housing complex, and to the residents who have
6 a history of articulating their needs as one
7 unified and integrated neighborhood.
8 While we recognize that a plan for
9 reapportionment in New Yor.k State is a
10 requirement of the data culled from the. recent
11 U.S. Census, we would not want any plan
12 considered, let alone implemented which would
13 negatively affect the community which we
14 manage. There can be no representational
15 differences from one area of the community to
16 the other. There are no differences in our
17 needs or concerns. Thus respectfully, we
18 would urge this Task Force to reject any plan
19 that would include anything but maintaining
20 the Co-op City community as one unified
21 neighborhood within the one larger
22 Congressional district. It is signed by Kevin
23 Silverman, executive general manager of
24 Riverbay Corporation. I thank you for your
25 indulgence.

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you. Any
3 questions? Catherine Regenhaud?
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I am sorry.
5 I wanted to apologize, at least for myself,
6 for the lack of access to a microphone down
7 here. I feel personally somewhat embarrassed
8 that we don't have a microphone, and just on
9 my own personal behalf, I apologize.
10 I couldn't agree with you more that
11 access for everybody means that people should
12 have access regardless of their condition.
13 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Catherine
14 Regenhaud, Co-op City resident? John Bruce?
15 Arthur Taub? Daniel Figueroa? Luis Diaz?
16 Lizandra Martinez? Julian McDavid?
17 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: Mr. Chairman,
18 as our speaker approaches the podium, I just
19 wanted to make a comment about one thing that
20 was said by our first speaker.
21 I guess the one thing that we all
22 acknowledge that we cannot do is keep the
23 Congressional District lines the same, because
24 the Congressional Districts each have to grow
25 based on the base population to about 654,000

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 people, and they must be under rules that come
3 from other places. They must be apportioned
4 equally, so the notion that we can somehow -
5 freeze what was done in 1992 in place for the
6 next decade is I think it is safe to say not
7 in the cards, one way or the other. There
8 will be changes, as everybody knows, if for no
9 other reason other than we are losing, two of
10 them. They are going to come from 31 to 29,
11 so I just wanted to respond. Ms. Dance made a
12 comment that she would prefer to see them all
13 remain the same. I think a lot of people
14 would like that, but it is politically --
15 impossible.
16 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very
17 much. Our next speaker is Julian McDavid, and
18 then Julian Marrero will be next.
19 MR. MCDAVID: Good afternoon,
20 ladies and gentlemen, and this panel. My name
21 is Julian McDavid. I am a resident and
22 citizen of the Williamsbridgearea, which is
23 part of the 17th Congressional District and
24 the 35th Senatorial District and the 83rd
25 Assembly District. And so my colleagues and

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 neighbors have sent me with a strong message
3 that the Task Force should leave things as
4 is. They say that if it is not broken, don't
5 fix it, and we urge you to leave things as it
6 is. I thank you for this time.
7 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very
8 much. Any questions? David Berrell,
9 welcome. Then after David will be Robert
10 Rivers if you are here.
11 MR. BERRELL: Good afternoon to
12 the panel and everybody in the audience. My
13 name is David Berrell, and I am the president
14 of the Eastchester Heights Tenants Advisory
15 Board. I represent over 1,400 families in the
16 northeast Bronx.
17 Recently, myself and my neighbors
18 were part of a movement that helped change
19 so.me of the leadership that we had in our
20 community. Our community is served by the
21 33rd Assembly District, which is now under the
22 leadership of Mr. Haigsly, who has been
23 elected recently, and it appears to be doing
24 the job that he was sent to Albany to do. The
25 Senatorial District, that is the 83rd, which

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2 is serviced by Senator Ruth Thompson.
3 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: We are going to
4 reverse the numbers. It is the 33rd
5 Senatorial District and the 83rd Assembly
6 District.
7 MR. BERRELL: I'm sorry, but she
8 is also doing the job that she was sent to
9 Albany to do. We have not enjoyed this kind
10 of pleasure from our elected officials in over
11 10 years. This is all under the leadership of
12 the Congressional District which I believe is
13 the 17th, which is headed by Elliot Engel. We
14 now have in place leadership for change and
15 leadership for advancement in our community.
16 We do not wish to change that now.
17 We have worked hard to get the leadership in
18 place, so that our communities can once again
19 join the rest of the communities around us and
20 advance. We have been neglected by former
21 elected officials, and now we are back on the
22 road to recovery. Now to come up with
23 redistricting and cut us out or cut us up
24 would be counterproductive to what the people
25 have chosen to do.

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 So we urge you, please, the people
3 we have in place right now are doing a
4 wonderful job. We need them there. We do not
5 wish to lose them and we do not wish to be cut
6 out of the new agenda that has been set
7 forth. We urge you do not change our
8 districts. That goes for the whole district.
9 If there is any added on, great. They can
10 join us and we will see wonderful things
11 happen, but we do want to remain one unified
12 voice, and we do not wish to be separated from
13 each other. I thank you for your time very
14 much.
15 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you.
16 Robert Rivers, Junior, welcome.
17 MR. RIVERS: Good afternoon,
18 ladies and gentlemen. My name is Robert
19 Rivers, Junior. I represent the Seaton Falls
20 neighborhood, and I join Ms. Capell in urging
21 you that in your next conference you make sure
22 that that all citizens have access to the
23 microphone without special arrangements, which
24 is what she had to go through. This is a
25 public hearing, for the public and you knew

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 that, and you knew that when you opened this
3 auditorium that people that have some type of
4 disability would not be able to get here.
5 I thank the gentleman for
6 apologizing to the citizens. But the
7 Committee should make sure that all citizens
8 can walk down here or get down here to the
9 microphone.
10 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: I can ass.ure
11 you that as co-chair, that that will be
12 corrected in future hearings, and staff who
13 selects these locations should make sure that
14 they are fully accessible to all individuals.
15 MR. RIVERS: I thank you.
16 According to your colleagues, it is a forgone
17 conclusion due to the census that the
18 Congressional District, the Assembly District
19 and the Senatorial District have to change.
20 It is also a forgone conclusion that New York
21 City gained in population. The speakers that
22 you have had up to this point are residents of
23 New York City. The change has happened in the
24 State, not in the City. So whether the State
25 has to lose two Congressional seats and the

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2 Assembly and the Senatorial districts have to
3 change, it should not impact on the City,
4 particularly in the Bronx.
5 Because as Mr. Burrell just said to
6 you, we have now gotten into office the type
7 of leadership that is responsive to the
8 community. The community is now working well
9 with the leadership. The community, if you
10 look at the polling, the community is behind
11 the leadership. We would like to keep our
12 districts in the manner that they are now
13 fashioned.
14 Although this state lost
15 population, the City gained population, so it
16 would automatically be that any change in
17 configuration of the districts should have
18 happen in the State, as opposed to down here
19 in the City. Again, I thank you for listening
20 to me. My name is Robert Rivers, Junior, and
21 I represent the Seaton Falls neighborhood
22 Association. Thank you very much.
23 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Can I ask you a
24 question, sir?
25 MR. RIVERS: Yes, sir.

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: That is in the
3 Bronx.
4 MR. RIVERS: Yes, sir.
5 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: What Senate
6 district is that?
7 MR. RIVERS: It is the 33rd
8 Senatorial District.
9 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: That is Bronx
10 and Westchester?
11 MR. RIVERS: That is Bronx,
12 Westchester County District.
13 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Congressiona1
14 District is Rangell?
15 MR. RIVERS: Yes, sir, and the
16 Assembly District is Assemblyman Carl
17 Hastings' district.
18 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: I just want to
19 point out to you, sir, that the State of New
20 York actually gained population, but the
21 reason why we are losing two Congressional
22 Districts is because we did not gain as much
23 as other states, and that is why we are losing
24 two seats.
25 MR. RIVERS: I understand that.

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2 But I also understand that New York City
3 itself gained in population, and where the
4 population decreased, or was not as rapidly
5 increased as the other states happen to have
6 been in New York State rather than in New York
7 City. What you are talking about is
8 redistricting the whole state, and that
9 includes New York City.
10 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Absolutely.
11 MR. RIVERS: What we are asking
12 you to do is in your consideration of changing
13 the configuration of the districts, we are
14 asking you if it is within your power to not
15 disturb the districts in the northeast Bronx,
16 because we have just gotten into place the
17 type of leadership that is responsive to us.
18 We had leadership here, but for
19 some reason, they lost touch with the people
20 like myself. The leadership we are now
21 having, and we intend to try and get our
22 leadership that is responsive to the will and
23 the desires of the people. That is what they
24 are supposed to do. I thank you again for
25 listening to myself. Yes, sir.

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: I didn't mean
3 to preempt any other questions. Could you
4 tell me the geographic boundaries of the
5 Seaton Falls neighborhood? Could you tell me
6 the streets?
7 MR. RIVERS: The geographic
8 boundaries are from Seaton Falls Park, which
9 is on your map, it will cover from Baychester
10 Avenue over to Mount Saint Michael High
11 School. Do you see Baychester Avenue on your
12 map?
13 MS. LEVINE: We don't have it on
14 here.
15 MR. RIVERS: Baychester Avenue is
16 a major street.
17 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: What are the
18 streets north and south, the numbers?
19 MR. RIVERS: It is named
20 streets. They are not numbered streets.
21 Awilder, Dorena, Eagle Hall.
22 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: Thank you very
23 much.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Can I ask?
25 MR. RIVERS: Yes, sir.

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I would
3 just like to return to the numbers for a
4 minute, because this is terribly important
5 that everybody understands. The State is
6 losing two districts. The City gained
7 population. In fact, your 17th Congressional
8 District gained 47,000 people over what it was
9 before.
10 MR. RIVERS: Yes.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: However,
12 you are now at 627,000 people. But the size
13 of every congressional district in the state
14 after we are done has to be 654,000, so you
15 are still 27,000 people short of a full
16 district.
17 My question to you would be if we
18 have to, and we do, we have go out outside of
19 the bounds of the 17th district to find 27,000
20 more people to add to it, where would you find
21 them, where would you go?
22 MR. RIVERS: Where would I cut?
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: No, not
24 cut. Where would you go get more people add
25 to the 17th District?

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 MR. RIVERS: I would do another
3 census. I would do another census. In our
4 community, there tends to be a lot of
5 undocumented people. They tend to be
6 concerned about giving information to
7 government officials for various reasons that
8 you know which I don't have to enumerate.
9 I would do another census, and I
10 wou1d assure the pub1ic that the information
11 that is given to the census will not be shared
12 with other governmental agencies that can have
13 an adverse affect on the people. That you are
14 trying get a real count so that you can know
15 how many people there are in a particular
16 area, and explain to the people that the
17 amount of people that are enumerated depends
18 on the amount of services that that area would
19 receive. I would do a better job of
20 explaining this to the people so that the
21 fears that people have for cooperating with
22 the census can be diminished.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Mr. Rivers,
24 I can see why you are a community leader.
25 MR. RIVERS: I am not a community

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 leader. Everyone in my community, most people
3 in my community are concerned about the same
4 things that I am concerned about. We are
5 concerned about the leadership in our
6 community. We are concerned about the
7 services that we will be receiving. We are
8 concerned about the neighborhood itself.
9 I just happen to have the time, and
10 my neighborhood asked to come. They picked
11 me. They could have picked any number of
12 people to come down here today that are more
13 equipped to do this than I am. I am the leas
14 of the --I have the least --see, I am lost.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: No, you are
16 very effective. You took my question and you
17 brought it back to the real root issue that
18 that is important. Our problem is that we
19 didn't do the census and you didn't do the
20 census. The fact that the City of New York
21 did the best job of any city in the country in
22 finding new people, and yet you are still
23 probably short. We are stuck now with these
24 numbers.
25 We have to find 27,000 people to

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 add to the 17th District. I don't mean to put
3 you on the spot right now, but I would invite
4 you and everybody in the room to help us deal 
5 with the problem we are left with, and that is
6 to make these districts. 
7 MR. RIVERS: Can I ask you a
8 question?
9 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Sure.
10 MR. RIVERS: Who decided on that
11 number?
12 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: That was
13 the result of the census count. We didn't do
14 that and neither did you, but we are left with
15 it and that's what --
16 MR. RIVERS: There was someone
17 who decided that this is going to be the new
18 number.
19 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: That number is
20 mathematically derived under a formula set in
21 federal law in 1941.
22 MR. RIVERS: You are telling me
23 that the formula cannot be changed in 2001?
24 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: It would be a
25 matter for the Congress of the United States

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 to change it.
3 MR. RIVERS: You have access to
4 them, right?
5 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: I have access
6 to them in about the same manner that you do.
7 MR. RIVERS: No, you have better
8 access because you are sitting on this panel
9 and I am standing here at your pleasure. Can
10 I ask you one more question? How is it that
11 there are very few New York City people on
12 this panel? Because the people that said who
13 they were and where they were from, I don't
14 recall one of them saying that they were from
15 New York City.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Maybe I can
17 try to answer that. Four of the people on
18 this panel were appointed by New York City
19 legislative leaders; Senator Connor and
20 Assemblyman Silver. So if these people don't
21 happen to live in this city, they represent
22 and they were appointed by two of your finest
23 New York City leaders, Senator Connor and
24 Assemblyman Silver. They know who appointed
25 them as well, and I am sure that we will all

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2 be as attentive to your needs as we are to our
3 own.
4 MR. RIVERS: That is all we are
5 asking you to do. We are not asking you to do
6 anything extraneous. What we are asking you
7 to do is it put us, the people that have to
8 live with what you decide, to put us up there
9 first, and say that you want the same thing
10 that you want to happen to the district that
11 you live in since you are happy with what is
12 happening at this particular time. You may
13 not have been happy like we were last year,
14 but we are satisfied with the district and the
15 leadership now, and all of a sudden, we may
16 not have the same type of leadership. That is
17 what we are really concerned about. Thank you
18 very much, gentlemen.
19 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: Yes, sir.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Can I ask
21 just one other question? Mr. Rivers, I just
22 wanted to clarify one thing. One of the
23 things that we have to do in addition to
24 balancing the population numbers, although
25 identically in the Congressional within

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2 certain areas in the Senate and Assembly
3 Districts, is to bring communities, or at
4 least discuss communities of interest and try
5 to figure out whether to bring them together
6 or whether parts of the Bronx ought to be in
7 one Senate District or one Assembly District
8 or one Congressional District.
9 So I just wanted you to understand
10 that those voices in the Bronx and all of
11 their complexions in this state will have a
12 Representative in the Senate and in the
13 Assembly. The question is how do we bind
14 communities together in doing it.
15 My question to you is at some
16 point, you may get access to a breakdown of
17 the population in your specific neighborhood.
18 My guess is we may come back to the Bronx some
19 day with a plan for reapportioning all of
20 those districts. I would just ask you as a
21 community project if you can when you
22 suggested to us that a whole bunch of people
23 were missed, I would just challenge your
24 neighborhood to give us evidence at a people
25 were missed. Contrary to Assemblyman

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2 Ortloff's comments, I am not 100 percent
3 convinced that we couldn't go get other data
4 if we wanted to; but we have to resolve that 
5 issue. That is going to be an issue resolved
6 by the State Legislature.
7 The bottom line is if your
8 neighborhood found that significant numbers
9 were missed, that might be important to us to
10 understand vis-a-vis how we conduct
11 reapportionment. I would just encourage you
12 once that data is available, as I hope it will
13 be, go back to your neighborhqod. And if you
14 can come back to us the next time we come to
15 the Bronx and say-here is proof that you
16 missed X thousands of people, that could be
17 important to us in doing what we have to do.
18 I would just ask you to do that.
19 MR. RIVERS: Well, I accept the
20 challenge, and when we do get the numbers, we
21 will go out on the street ourselves and see
22 what we can do to show you that the numbers
23 are there. That due to the nature of the
24 people and the nature of the census, that a
25 lot of the people were reluctant to cooperate

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 to with you. I am not one of them, but a lot
3 of people that I know of were reluctant to
4 cooperate, and not that they have done
5 anything criminal, or that they have anything
6 to hide. It is just that in different
7 countries, different government officials are
8 not as benevolent as the American government
9 officials are. They are the the people that
10 act on the government's behalf. This is not
11 their experience that they can sit and talk on
12 almost an equal basis with government
13 officials as I am doing right now. These are
14 the things that the census people have to
15 overcome.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct, and
17 I would just encourage you that when we come
18 back to the Bronx to come back and tell us
19 what you found.
20 MR. RIVERS: I would be more than
21 glad to do that.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
23 MR. RIVERS: Have a good day.
24 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Gloria
25 Wharton?

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: As she is
3 coming up, I would like to acknowledge that we
4 have been joined by Assemblywoman Gloria Davis
5 and Assemblyman Peter Rivera.
6 MS. WHARTON: Good afternoon,
7 Members of the Panel, and thank you for
8 allowing me to speak. My name is Gloria
9 Wharton. I am from Co-op City, and I also
10 feel that our district should not be separated
11 in any way. Co-op City is it called Co-op
12 City for a reason, because geographically, our
13 services are united. We get all of our public
14 utilities, et cetera, dealt with as a group.
15 The gentleman that previously
16 spoke, we also agree because we also are
17 covered by the same Assembly, Congressional
18 and Senatorial area. We have finally somebody
19 to listen to our pleas. We would be loathe to
20 have this area, vis-a-vis these are people
21 with whom we have finally established a
22 relationship with, who seem to be interested
23 in our welfare taken way from us.
24 We are imploring that you don't
25 that, and that you do not separate Co-op City,

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 whichever way that you are doing it, because
3 like I said, we work as a unit. We are called
4 Co-op City because we are operating as a
5 city. Like I said, all our services are
6 delivered on a City wide basis. Also, we are
7 governed by one management firm. Thank you
8 very much for allowing me to voice my opinion.
9 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Any questions?
10 Thank you, ma'am. Peter Rivera, Neighborhood
11 Enhancement Training and Services? David
12 Griffiths? Is David here? Joan E. Jackson?
13 Henry Reid? Ellie Jurado? Connie Reilly?
14 Monique Johnson.
15 MS. JOHNSON: Good afternoon,
16 everyone. I am Monique Johnson. I am the
17 president of the Co-op City Tenants
18 Association. I am coming on behalf of my
19 State Senator asking that it be left as it
20 is.
21 For a very long time, we have been
22 working bridging the gap between Bronx east
23 and Bronx north. Our Senator has finally
24 helped us to do so. We have developed an
25 excellent relationship, and we would like for

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2 it to remain as is.
3 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: What district
4 is that you are talking about?
5 MS. JOHNSON: 34th.
6 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Any other
7 comments? I didn't want to interrupt.
8 MS. JOHNSON: No. Any
9 questions? Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you,
11 ma'am. Tony Kanatta, and next will be Rabbi
12 Sheldon Steinig.
13 MR. KANATTA: Good afternoon
14 ladies and gentlemen. I am here representing
15 the Senatorial district. My name is Tony
16 Kanatta. I am president of the Waterbury
17 LaSalle Community Association. I have been
18 chairman of Board Ten in that same district,
19 and I have worked on different school boards.
20 I also have a business in Brooklyn for 38
21 years, and I was Chairman of the Fifth Avenue
22 Merchants Association. I have served on their
23 Area Policy Board, and I was also on their
24 Community Board.
25 I have worked with many people

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 through the years, and I find that our Senator
3 is a down to earth guy who meets with all the
4 people in our area, and he has a working
5 relationship, whether it be with the kids
6 where he does the Little League parade, as
7 well as senior groups, and he is also very
8 responsible for the guy who gets up in the
9 morning and goes to work, and the housewife,
10 that big mom who sees that her kids go to
11 school, sees that their clothes are done, sees
12 that their food is bought and that their meals
13 are done.
14 Our Senator in our area has been so
15 responsive. I worked with him, I would say
16 the first time I ever met him was when he was
17 an Assemblyman in the 34th District on a new
18 high school, which we never had in our area
19 and we finally got. I have seen him work with
20 residents, veterans groups, no matter.
21 He has four generations alive in
22 his family; his father, himself. He is a
23 father and a grandfather, so he knows almost
24 every tier that we are in, whether it be in
25 the 80s, in the late 50s, in the 30s, and the

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2 kids, that he knows how to respond. He is a
3 regular guy on the street. He is not like a
4 politician that comes up to you and you have
5 to look at him, he is six feet tall. You can
6 stand next to him and he talks man to man or
7 person to person to everybody.
8 He cares about our schools, he
9 cares about everything in our area, and he
10 keeps a constant knowledge of what is going
11 on. He has helped our schools greatly with
12 computers, and he has met with so many
13 different people, and he responds whether you
14 live in his district or not. He is a real
15 people guy. I feel that we have a great,
16 great working agenda with him, and I would not
17 like to see any part of it changed.
18 I think we work well with the north
19 Bronx, northwest Bronx, northeast Bronx, and
20 parts of Westchester. If you gentleman
21 remember way back, we were part of
22 Westchester. That is very important. We have
23 so many things in common, and we can work
24 together on it. I don't care what your color
25 is, what your nationality is, because we have

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2 Presbyterian, Protestant, we have Jewish
3 temples, we have Catholic churches, and Guy
4 works well with all of them. I would like to
5 see that status quo remain the same. I am not
6 a guy who hides behind something. I feel that
7 he makes it work so well, let's leave it as it
8 is.
9 We have acquired a new area in the
10 last couple of years, and we still work well
11 with it and we keep trying. Our neighborhood
12 has the best sanitation record in the borough
13 and probably in the City. And we have a grea
14 district manager who works very well with our
15 Senator and all our elected officials. In
16 fact, our Senator works with the Democratic
17 appointees, and he is the only one in our
18 area, and he works like they were brothers and
19 sisters. That is the way I would like to see
20 it go. I would like to see other places take
21 a keynote from that, and realize this is what
22 it takes to bring a great city together. The
23 census is great, but you know what? It is
24 only numbers. I don't want to be classified
25 as a number. Like Mr. Rivers said, he

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2 represents a great area, and he would love to
3 see it stay that way because they are coming
4 back and coming up.
5 You people on this Board, I realize
6 that you have a job to use that number, but at
7 the same time, you have to go deep in your
8 heart and realize we are not only numbers, we
9 are people. I think we know more about our
10 neighborhoods, about our cities. In fact,
11 when I went to Brooklyn, I went through a
12 turmoil that is probably one of the best areas
13 in Brooklyn, Bay Ridge. My bus~ness was
14 located below the line of what they declared
15 to be Sunset Park, which turned out to be a
16 disaster, and it has taken it 20 years to come
17 back. I wouldn't like to see that happen to
18 any neighborhood in the Bronx that is
19 satisfied with what they got. These people
20 are telling you this is good for us, we are
21 doing well. Don't change it just because of a
22 little thing like a number. That is only a
23 number. We are not numbers, and I thank you
24 all.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 question, Mr. Kanatta. Could you tell me
3 where the Waterbury LaSalle neighborhood is?
4 Could you tell me briefly on the map, please.
5 MR. KANATTA: Yes, Roosevelt to
6 Middletown Road, that is east and west. North
7 and south it would be --
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is that in
9 the east Bronx portion?
10 MR. KANATTA: Yes IS-195 would be
11 one of our border lines, and the Westchester
12 creek is the other borderline. It is a very
13 residential area, but we have apartments.
14 Right next door, we have private. We have
15 towers, many people there. In fact, one of
16 the biggest complaints I have, and I don't
17 know how the City government, the State
18 government or the Federal government responds
19 to. it is that we have a K to six school that
20 is now 75 years old. We have another one, K
21 to five now, because they have been reduced.
22 We have another one that is K to five, and in
23 65 years, they have never, never built another
24 school. And yet our area has grown so that
25 you can't find an empty lot in the whole

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2 area. Two big projects have gone up, two big
3 housing complexes have gone up, and somehow we
4 are overlooked. That's what I mean where the
5 people at the Board of Education never even
6 saw us. Maybe because we are quiet.
7 Like I say, these are the people
8 that get up every day and go to work. They
9 are very quiet. They don't scream out at
10 decisions, but I think and I know because I go
11 out very day, I visit schools and I visit
12 moms. In fact, I had a meeting yesterday with
13 the District Superintendent of School Board
14 Eight. She was very responsive, and I saw
15 some of her programs, and they are wonderful
16 that she is trying to bring back in. I feel
17 that it is a great community, a great
18 community to work, a great community to live
19 and a great community to play in. I hope that
20 we can keep the status quo. We are doing
21 well, and I would like to keep it that way.
22 Maybe I would like to see others use us as an
23 example of what a neighborhood can be become.
24 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very,
25 much.

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01 
2 MR. KANATTA: You're welcome.
3 CHAIRMAN SKELOS:Rabbi Sheldon
4 Steinig.
5 RABBI STEINIG: I am Rabbi
6 Sheldon Steinig. I am principal of the Beth
7 Jacob Beth Miriam School in Pelham Parkway.
8 Shall I tell you where that is?
9 (A discussion was held off the record.)
10 RABBI STEINIG: Beth Jacob Beth
11 Miriam school is the only Jewish day school in
12 the Bronx right now outside of the Riverdale
13 community. Our students come to us from
14 besides Pelham Parkway, we have students from
15 Co-op City, Moshulu Parkway, Parkchester,
16 really throughout the Bronx.
17 We are represented in the State
18 Senate by Senator Velella, and I can say that
19 he has been a particularly good friend of the
20 school. Last week, we had our school dinner,
21 and as busy a man as he is, he was able to be
22 there at our dinner. He is very much
23 responsive to the needs not only to the
24 neighborhood, but our religious community.
25 Seated not far away from Senator

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2 Velella was Assemblyman Jeff Klein, another
3 very busy man who still found time to be at
4 our dinner. The fact is that our delegation
5 of elected officials really do work together
6 in a very strong, nonpartisan way. It is not
7 political, but it always seems to be a matter
8 of what best serves the community, what best
9 serves the people, and in that aspect, the
10 Pelham Parkway community has been very, very
11 fortunate.
12 The voting district as you look at
13 it, seems to meander, as many districts do,
14 but the fact is that Pelham Parkway in the
15 east northern most area of the Bronx does have
16 much more in common with the west Bronx, with
17 Riverdale than with let's say the south
18 Bronx. Housing and economic issues are more
19 homogenous. Educational and religious matters
20 again seem to be more similar. The stretching
21 out of the district into Westchester might
22 cause some people to question, but I don't
23 find that to be a problem. The fact is I am
24 not a native New Yorker. You can probably
25 tell from the way I speak that I have a strong

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2 Philadelphia accent and I am still proud of
3 it. Go Sixers.
4 MR. HOPPE: Any pretzels for us?
5 RABBI STEINIG: No, but I have
6 lived in Manhattan and in Queens and the
7 Bronx, and I can tell you that the other
8 families of New York are very, very quick to
9 forget the Bronx is even attached. The fact
10 that we have Senatorial Districts that wander
11 into Westchester, making the Bronx a concern
12 for Westchester voters; the fact that our
13 Congressional Districts extend into Queens
14 means that Bronx issues now become important
15 for Queens voters as well. I think this has
16 been very much to the benefit of the Borough
17 of the Bronx, and I think changing that simply
18 for the sake of making a map look a little bit
19 neater would very much be to the detriment of
20 the communities of the Bronx, really from
21 everything I have seen.
22 As I said, I am only living here
23 25, 26 years, but as a newcomer, I can say
24 that the Bronx is very much a forgotten
25 borough. By being able to cross county lines

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2 and to extend over bridges and bays, the Bronx
3 is able to make itself stronger political
4 force. As I said, that's to the benefit of
5 the residents and the voters here. We realize
6 that you are up against a tremendous
7 challenge, and changes have to be made, of
8 course, but certain status quos have proven
9 themselves to be advantageous, and really to
10 the benefit of all. As much as possible, we
11 ask you not to tamper with success. I thank
12 you for allowing me the privilege of being
13 part of this process and I thank you for your
14 time.
15 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very
16 much, sir. We have one question.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: A comment,
18 Rabbi. You mentioned the meandering nature of
19 this district. This is one of the Senate
20 Districts anyway in New York that meanders a
21 great deal. It is not the only one, but it is
22 clearly one of them. Secondly, you raised the
23 issue of questions, and there were lots of
24 questions raised about this district last
25 time. Right or wrong, it went to the New York

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 Court of Appeals, which said that this
3 district was in conformity with the state
4 constitution.
5 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Six to one.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator
7 Skelos I think has reminded us for a decade.
8 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: The districts
9 by the Justice Department were held in
10 compliance with the Voting Rights Act.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct, and
12 I think that the issue that we have to resolve
13 again is, as Senator Skelos well knows, that
14 the complexion of the Voting Rights Act has
15 changed. The legal environment in which we
16 had attached the form is different. The
17 landscape is different than it was in 1992.
18 I think that your testimony about
19 where this community of interest goes is part
20 of what we have to take into account. That is
21 why we are here. We may not all agree, but we
22 are here to hear what people have to say about
23 the nature of their communities and how
24 reapportionment has served them in the past
25 and may serve them in the future. So I just

47
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2 wanted to put those two issues on the table.
3 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very
4 much, Rabbi. Susan pait? Is Susan here?
5 Brad Silver?
6 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: As this
7 witness is coming up, let me acknowledge that
8 we have been joined by Member of the Assembly
9 Dinowitz.
10 MR. SILVER: Good afternoon. My
11 name is Brad Silver. I am the Executive
12 Vice-President of the Bronx Jewish Community
13 Council, and I thank you for this opportunity
14 to testify today. The Bronx Jewish Community
15 Council is a social service agency which
16 provides concrete services to the elderly and
17 low income persons throughout the borough.
18 Of course, we serve a variety of
19 people. Our services are not just oriented to
20 towards serving the Jewish community. We were
21 incorporated in 1972, and we represent the
22 antipoverty efforts of the five local Jewish
23 community councils in the Bronx and their
24 constituents and groups.
25 Through our parent and subsidiary

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 corporations, we provide home delivered meals,
3 Medicaid home care, case services, and we are
4 involved in a number of community preservation
5 efforts, especially in the South Bronx through
6 the Pell and the NEP programs. We know that
7 in order to provide good services to our
8 clients, the continuity of staff is
9 important.
10 I think that what you are hearing
11 today from everybody who has spoken is what
12 people are concerned about is the continuity
13 of their Legislative representation. We work
14 have worked and do continue to work with all
15 of the elected officials in the borough.
16 Most of those elected officials are
17 Democrats, and we have a very good working
18 relationship with all of them. We are aware
19 of the fact that because of some population
20 shifts that some district lines may have to
21 change, and if there are going to be any
22 changes, we urge you to make those changes
23 minimal.
24 There are communities who have come
25 together in Legislative districts, and you

49
1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 know that some of them are in the South Bronx
3 and some of them are in the north Bronx and
4 some of them are in Westchester, and they
5 learned to work together and develop a
6 relationship with their elected officials.
7 That relationship is very important. It
8 for people to learn communities, and it
9 takes time for communities learn their
10 elected officials. If you are going to
11 disrupt these relationships, it is going to be
12 very difficult to get certain kinds of things
13 done. We would urge you to make as few
14 changes as possible to maintain continuity.
15 I know that there have been some
16 comments here about the 34th Senatorial
17 District, and I would like to just direct a
18 few comments to that issue. I guess what I
19 have to say is going to be a little bit blunt,
20 but you will excuse me. Senator Guy Velella
21 is the only elected official in the state
22 Legislature from the Bronx who is a
23 Republican. The district comes down from the
24 Bronx, goes up into Westchester, and then
25 comes back down into the Bronx. But I can

50
1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 tell you that over the years, that Senator
3 Velella's party affiliation has been very
4 important to various groups in the community,
5 both in terms of client and constituent
6 services and in terms of community services.
7 It helps to have friends on both sides of the
8 aisle.
9 A plan which would change the
10 Senatorial Districts in the Bronx which might
11 result in our losing our only Republican
12 elected official I believe would make things
13 much more difficult for some of the community
14 groups to get certain kinds of things done,
15 because there are certain times when you have
16 to talk to somebody in the government who has
17 a different party affiliation. In the Bronx,
18 we have a very large course of Democrats, and
19 as I said Senator Velella is the only
20 Republican elected official.
21 In regards to the Congressional
22 District issue, I understand what the dilemma
23 is. I know that if I can slip back for a
24 moment into the Senatorial District issues, I
25 had a conversation with Senatorial Thompson.

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1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 We are involved in a project in the southern
3 part of her district down in Concourse Village
4 where she is trying to free up some money that 
5 would allocate and help build a ramp which
6 wou1d a11ow handicapped access from one side
7 of the Concourse Village community to the
8 other. The community needed a not-for-profit
9 organization to help process some of the
10 funds. And since we provide client services
11 in that area, and they know us, we agreed to
12 do it.
13 Senator Thompson is concerned that
14 she is going to lose geography because her
15 Senate district has greater population than
16 what is supposed to be the average. But
17 again, we have heard from I don't know how
18 many people here who said that this elected
19 official has put together a coalition if of
20 community groups who feel that they are really
21 listened to. So this is a great dilemma,
22 especially for those portions of her district
23 which are southern, because they really see
24 her as a great advocate.
25 In regards to the Congressional

52
1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 District, I understand that in the 17th
3 Congressional District which represents a good
4 portion of the borough, may have to grow or
5 change, I can always say to you again that
6 incumbency counts and seniority counts. When
7 the State Legislature needs to get more
8 dollars from the federal government, it is
9 really very helpful that the people that you
10 have sitting Congress have some seniority and
11 have something to say about the dollars that
12 are coming into the State of New York.
13 Because we know that in a lot of ways we are
14 short changed.
15 So I know the current configuration
16 of the 17th District is somewhat different
17 than the prior configuration of the 17th
18 District, and you might want to look at what
19 the old 17th looked like in trying to figure
20 out how to draw the lines for the new 17th. I
21 am not an expert in this area, but I know that
22 if you change the district, that you may
23 essentially weaken the incumbency situation.
24 And as you heard from everybody here already,
25 the Bronx works together. There are differen,

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2 ethnic groups in the Bronx, different
3 communities in the Bronx. We all live
4 together, we are concerned about our quality
5 of life, and you know that we were awarded the
6 All American Cities award for just that
7 reason, so thank you very much.
8 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Any questions?
9 Thank you very much. Did you have a comment?
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER : Just one
11 comment. I understand and I appreciate your
12 bluntness about both sides of the aisle in
13 Albany. One of the interesting questions is
14 what would happen if the aisles ever changed.
15 Senator Skelos knows that the Republicans have
16 been in power for the better part of 50 years
17 in the Senate.
18 What it highlights is that while we
19 can certainly consider incumbency, it
20 shouldn't necessarily be a primal driving
21 force. As you can appreciate, all four of the
22 elected officials here at one point were
23 freshmen. We started, and yet you see at this
24 table among the four elected officials
25 probably 40 to 50 years of experience in the

54
1 Reaportionment Committee -6-8-01
2 State House.
3 So when we look at incumbency, it
4 can really be a factor, but I would just say
5 we are here to balance that with other factors
6 that ideally will give the best representation
7 to a community to allow the community voice to
8 be heard. And frankly, as was heard the last
9 time in this district was drawn, the district
10 next to it was drawn in large measure to give
11 new voices in New York an opportunity to be
12 heard. So that is where our voting rights
13 responsibilities are. There are other
14 responsibilities as well. It is just all part
15 of a very complicated picture. I appreciate
16 your candor.
17 The only time I would suggest that
18 we put too much weight on the incumbency
19 variable is if the politics of this state were
20 to change, then you have got the flip side of
21 the problem. Which is we would hate to at
22 least say this part of the process, the
23 benefits of incumbency and party affiliation
24 are factors, but they are not the sole guiding
25 factors. There is no question some of my

55
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2 colleagues might want to say look, wouldn't it
3 be great if everybody in the State were
4 represented by a Senate Republican or Assembly
5 Democrat. That is not what our goal is to do.
6 MR. SILVER: I understand but
7 I--
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I appreciate
9 your comments.
10 MR. SILVER: Can I speak?
11 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Yes, speak all
12 you want.
13 MR. SILVER: The fact that
14 whatever the configuration in the Assembly or
15 the Senate is, we do occasionally have a
16 Republican governor or a Republican mayor, and
17 that changes also, and nothing stays the
18 same. I know there has been a big deal about
19 term limits, but my position on this is that
20 we have had term limits in the United States
21 and they are called elections.
22 And as you heard, and people do
23 move on to other places, leaving opportunities
24 for new people. And in some cases when people
25 are not responsive to the community, they are

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2 turned out of office. Those things do happen,
3 but I guess one of the things that I was
4 trying to emphasize and I think everybody else
5 here was trying to emphasize is that over a
6 period of time, people learn who else is in
7 the district. That takes time, and it takes
8 time for the representatives to learn
9 everything down to the local street corner.
10 We have a group of elected officials who have
11 spent a lot of time learning about us and the
12 community, and we can go to them and they know
13 what we are talking about. We don't have to
14 start at page one. Thank you.
15 RABBI STEINIG: Can I ask a
16 question? I just wanted to make sure I
17 understand Senator Dollinger's point. New
18 people have to be given their turn as well.
19 But just in terms of what you said in the
20 committee, I just want to make sure I
21 understood properly. Did you say that on this
22 Committee, which I think we all agree is doing
23 something extremely important for the entire
24 state? But did you say that there are no
25 newly elected representatives on this

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2 Committee, if that is the way I understood
3 it?
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I won't
5 presume. I have been in the Legislature since
6 1992, and I think I am the least senior in the
7 gang.
8 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: I must be the
9 old timer.
10 RABBI STEINIG: So we are all
11 dealing with multiples here.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The elected
13 officials here are all incumbents. There is
14 no question about that.
15 RABBI STEINIG: Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: David
17 Edelstein.
18 MR. EDELSTEIN: My name is David
19 Edelstein. I am active in a number of grass
20 roots community organizations in the 34th
21 State Senatorial District. I almost feel as
22 though I am coming up at a moment where I
23 should deal with the issue of incumbency more
24 than any of the other issues that were on my
25 mind.

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2 It happens to be that our incumbent
3 is doing a great job, but the community
4 organizations rely on incumbency. It's not
5 the specific person, although we are lucky to
6 have a very excellent State Senator. It is
7 also the authority, the ability to respond to
8 the needs of this constituency.
9 Given the size and shape of the
10 34th that was referred to before, we were at a
11 meeting of about 250 community leaders that
12 the Senator had brought together from all
13 parts of his district to talk about the
14 options that were available in terms of rents
15 in their community, support for their
16 community organizations, ways to assure that
17 their community organizations were able to
18 function and serve the neighborhood and serve
19 the larger community as a whole.
20 There were people from throughout
21 the district and that brought together a
22 community of interest in a way that I was very
23 proud to be a part of, and take great sort of
24 comfort in knowing that our communities could
25 work so well together. So I give credit to

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2 our particular State Senator, and certainly I
3 am happy to have and am encouraged by Senator
4 Velella's enthusiasm and expertise, but the
5 ability to bring together people from the
6 large ethnic differences and middle class
7 working people together to form a community of
8 interest is really what impressed me about the
9 size and shape of the 34th State Senatorial
10 District.
11 So I am glad that it was approved
12 Court of Appeals. 1'm glad that it was
13 approved by the powers that be, but it has
14 also been proven by the local community, and
15 that is very important. But the shape is
16 contiguous in the sense of middle class
17 values --I am happy to be one of the four
18 people speaking from the 34th. I am happy to
19 hear from a member of the African American
20 member from a public housing unit in the
21 neighborhood. We work together with the State
22 Senator in a way that is not unique, I'm sure,
23 but it is very important to us all. I am
24 happy to be able to speak about the community
25 of interest that really exists in the 34th

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2 with a great Senator and also with the great
3 size and shape of our district. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very
5 much, sir. Any questions? Dr. Steven
6 Bernardo? Hari Bajraktari? Assemblywoman
7 Gloria Davis?
8 MR. JENKINS: With your
9 permission, I will speak on behalf of
10 Assemblywoman Gloria Davis.
11 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Yes.
12 MR. JENKINS: Hi, my name is Carl
13 S. Jenkins. I am an active participant in the
14 community affairs of the 79th Assembly
15 District. I am speaking in the place of and
16 instead of Assemblywoman Gloria Davis here
17 today. I am also a member of AALDEF, which is
18 the African American Legal Defense and
19 Education Fund.
20 First let me state that when it
21 comes to the 79th Assembly District, we who
22 participate in the 79th Assembly District are
23 very happy with the lines the way they are
24 drawn. We would not be in favor of any
25 substantial changes to that district. There

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2 are some minor changes that we would like to
3 see take place, but those minor changes, we
4 are confident that Assemblywoman Davis will be
5 interacting with the Committee to make the
6 Committee aware of those changes that we and
7 she feel should be enforced. But other than
8 that, we are very happy with the 79th.
9 My main point in coming up here
10 today is really to address the issue of the
11 17th Congressional District. 10 years ago,
12 approximately 10 years ago I should say in
13 1992, that district was formed was formed as a
14 majority minority district. I remember when
15 it was formed because I, along with a number
16 of other people in the Bronx and allover the
17 City, did a lot of volunteer work with respect
18 to redistricting back then.
19 The African American Legal Defense
20 Fund was involved with it, the NAACP, the
21 Puerto Rican Legal Defense Fund, the
22 Senatorial Call For Justice at Medgar Evars
23 College. All of these organizations were
24 involved in the redistricting at the time
25 too. I remember that the 17th Congressional

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2 District was created was for the specific
3 purpose of empowering a majority minority
4 seat. In fact, I recall that Congressman Joe
5 Serrano gave up Concourse Village, which was
6 part of his district, and that became part of
7 the new 17th Congressional District. The
8 reason for that was to empower that majority
9 minority seat.
10 Those efforts have been frustrated,
11 and they have been frustrated by the inclusion
12 of Riverdale in that district. Riverdale does
13 not share a community of interest with the
14 rest of the Bronx, with the rest of that
15 district. Riverdale should be cut out of that
16 district and placed into a Westchester County
17 district, Congressional District, and the
18 numbers need to be made up by the exclusion of
19 Riverdale can be made up by pulling from other
20 areas of the Bronx, mainly the Central Bronx,
21 other areas in and around the Concourse
22 Village area. Other areas immediately go from
23 there, go to make up portions of that 17th
24 Congressional District, and it wouldn't be a
25 problem to get the number.

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2 I believe the number that I was
3 quoted here was 654,000 is the new number.
4 You wouldn't have any problem making that 
5 number. But one thing is clear. If you live
6 in the Bronx or lower Westchester, those areas
7 of lower Westchester that make up that 17th
8 Congressional District, Riverdale, it is a
9 very different community, and it should not be
10 a part of the rest of that district. It
11 should not share a Congressional seat with the
12 rest of that district.
13 I have one other issue that I would
14 like to raise as well, and that is as I was
15 sitting here from the moment the hearing
16 started, I heard all of you speak and I heard
17 you tell where you were from, and I heard
18 Robert Rivers also make mention of this, that
19 nobody seems to be from the New York City
20 area, but also we have no minority
21 representation on this Committee. Is there
22 any particular reason for that? Because I
23 asked Assemblywoman Davis about that while I
24 was sitting here.
25 I remember that 10 years ago, we

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2 definitely did have minority representation on
3 this Committee because they did have them. Is
4 there a reason why there is no minority
5 representation at this time?
6 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: The
7 appointments to this Task Force were made of
8 the elected officials and the two non elected
9 officials are made by the respective leaders
10 of the conference. In the Republican
11 conference in the Senate, there is no minority
12 member elected, although we have tried to
13 elect candidates of color. In the Assembly
14 minority, there is a similar situation, so I
15 would ask the two other Members perhaps why.
16 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: I asked the
17 Speaker for this appointment. The Speaker
18 gave me the appointment. Other than that, I
19 can't tell you much more about why he made
20 that appointment. I assume that he felt
21 confident that I would perform in a manner
22 that would represent all of the people of the
23 State of New York in an even handed open
24 manner.
25 MR. JENKINS: I simply don't

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2 question that, sir. That is not why I am
3 asking the question. But it occurs to me that
4 one of the jobs that we really face is pretty
5 much enforcing the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
6 The purpose of the Voting Rights Act of 1965
7 did seem to address the issue of inadequate
8 representation in minority communities. So it
9 would seem appropriate that there would be
10 appropriate that there would be at least. one
11 member of this Committee who would be a member
12 of that community.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: If I could
14 just add, earlier I misspoke when I said there
15 are four members of the Task Force appointed
16 by Senator Connor and Speaker Silver. I
17 should have said three, but let me reiterate
18 that. The question of who is appointed to
19 this Task Force is obviously very important to
20 the public. We have heard at each of our
21 hearings the same issue raised, and I am glad
22 you raised it again today. It is of great
23 concern to me.
24 Senator Skelos and I are of the
25 Republican conferences in our two Houses. We

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2 have aggressively and eagerly recruited
3 candidates of color. Unfortunately for our
4 side of the aisle, each time we have mounted
5 campaigns and recruited candidates of color,
6 the Democratic Party has marshalled its
7 resources to defeat them. In fact, in Suffolk
8 County last year, they marshalled their
9 resources to defeat a black Republican
10 candidate with a white candidate who isn't
11 even a member of the Democratic Party. But be
12 that as it may, that is electoral politics.
13 We have done as well as we can. It
14 is not within the power of Senator Bruno or
15 Assemblyman Fasso to meet that need. I would
16 direct your concerns, seriously, to Speaker
17 Silver. And I mean no disrespect to
18 Assemblyman Parment. He is a very able
19 Assemblyman, and you said it yourself. He
20 will do a good job. The question you raised
21 really needs to be addressed to the Speaker
22 and to Senator Connor.
23 MR. HEDGES: I appreciate your
24 comments as well. I was here 10 years ago. I
25 was on the Task Force, and I can assure you,

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2 as Assemblyman Parment, that it is our
3 intention and I believe that we will deliver
4 on our intention to vigorously follow the
5 Voting Rights Act.
6 I think that 10 years ago in the
7 Assembly, we were quite successful in making
8 sure that the Voting Rights Act was strictly
9 adhered to, and we were quite successful in
10 regards to the outcome of the ability of
11 communities to elect candidates of their
12 choosing. I am proud of that. I worked very
13 closely with Assemblywoman Davis 10 years ago
14 to make sure that the districts that she was
15 interested in were configured in a suitable
16 fashion, and I will do that again. Your point
17 is well taken, and I appreciate you're making
18 it.
19 MR. JENKINS: Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Our next
21 witness is John Rose. Again, we apologize for
22 the fact that you have to speak from the back
23 of the room.
24 MR. ROSE: My name is John Rose.
25 I represent the Gloria Wise Boys and Girls

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2 Club of Co-op City. Before I make my prepared
3 speech, I have a few comments of my own, if I
4 may. I speak to you regarding the problems
5 encountered by myself about the accommodations
j 6 for this hearing. We have the ADA, and
7 through the ADA I have become a member of
8 Community Board 10, and I am also a member of
9 School Board 11. I am also a very strong
10 advocate for the ADA. I want to make everyone
11 aware and to become more active in
12 implementing the ADA law, especially in this
13 room. I appreciate your earlier comments on
14 that issue. Let me go on with my prepared
15 statement if I may. Bear with me, because I
16 deal with this every day, so I will do the
17 best I can.
18 On behalf of our community based
19 Board of Directors and the families, children,
20 youth and senior citizens which we serve, our
21 nonprofit agency respectfully requests that no
22 plan for reapportionment consider splitting
23 our northeast Bronx neighborhood into two
24 separate pieces.
25 We are raising this issue because

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2 in the wake of the 1990 census when
3 reapportionment was also discussed, some
4 suggested that the Co-op City Housing
5 development be split into two different
6 Congressional Districts. While we have heard
7 nothing about anyone raising the specter again
8 this time, this testimony is being presented
9 in the hope that should any such suggestion or
10 recommendation be made, that it be forcefully
11 rejected.
12 The history of the building of
13 Co-op City is mired in racial divisiveness
14 based on the refusal of the original
15 developers to develop an integrated community
16 for people of low and moderate income. Only
17 in the face of a public humiliation, a legal
18 action for affirmative fair marketing in
19 housing contemplated by the Urban League were
20 African Americans and other people of color
21 encouraged to purchase homes here. The timing
22 of that decision was unfortunate, and the 10
23 percent of the housing units set aside for the
24 affirmative action plan were all centered in
25 Section 5, a relatively isolated part of the

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2 community where over 5,300 families reside.
3 As a result, Section 5 is not only
4 geographically removed from the main Co-op
5 City campus, it became the section where
6 "Black people lived." Only time and natural
7 demographic changes in Bronx County has
8 resolved this issue, notwithstanding that the
9 negative history has persisted oft times
10 without anyone remembering the history. To
11 consider separating the Section 5 area from
12 the balance of Co-op City in any Congressional
13 District reapportionment would be an
14 incredibly cruel and deleterious act. It
15 would be a perpetuation of a long standing
16 problem in uniting this community which has
17 worked for decades under stable resident
18 leadership to correct the injustices inherited
19 from the original developers.
20 The 50,000 people of Co-op City are
21 part of one neighborhood with one elected
22 local leadership in our unique and stable
23 integrated community of Bronx working men and
24 women and their families. Our agency, the
25 nonprofit organization which provides service

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2 to preschoolers at our Goose Bay Nursery, to
3 youth in our Gloria Wise Boys and Girls Club,
4 to senior citizens in our Senior Services
5 Program and to the disabled in our Handicapped
6 Adults Association ask this Task Force to
7 please refrain from any consideration of
8 splitting Co-op City's Electorial
9 representation. Thank you. It signed Charles
10 Rosen, Executive Director.
11 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very.
12 much. Mr. Rose, can we have a copy of your
13 written testimony. Thank you very much.
14 MR. ROSE: Can I say some of my
15 own comments? I have been living in Co-op
16 City now for over 21 years. I am very
17 involved in my community. I am a member of
18 the School Board and the Chairman of the
19 Community Board for over 18 years. The reason
20 why I say all that is we have a community in
21 Co-op City with one area where everyone is
22 truly a citizen, and we all work together. We
23 would like to keep the good representation
24 that we have of all of our elected officials.
25 As you have heard before, we all work

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2 together, so I would beg you please keep it
3 that way. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very
5 much. Maurice LaBonne.
6 MR. LABONNE: Good afternoon. I
7 am Maurice LaBonne. I am the vice-president
8 of Montifiore Medical Center. I am here today
9 to express our concern about reapportionment.
10 When the Legislature convenes to reapportion
11 Legislative Districts, in particular the
12 Congressional Districts within Bronx County,
13 we call upon the Legislature to do so with
14 particular attention to the health and well
15 being of our borough.
16 Montifiore is the largest provider
17 of health care services to our Borough to
18 serve 1,300,000 neighbors. The health care
19 system is comprised of two hospitals; the
20 Henry and Lucy Moses Division located on Gun
21 Hill Road in the northwestern section of the
22 borough, and the Jack E. Wyler Hospital and
23 the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the
24 east Bronx. We also serve many communities
25 throughout the borough, with 24 offices of th

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2 Montifiore Medical Group and our multi
3 specialty ambulatory care centers at the
4 Jerome L. and Dora Friedman Medical Arts
5 Pavilion at our Moses Campus, and the
6 Montifiore Medical Park in the east Bronx.
7 Remarkably close to one out of four
8 of the Bronx' 1,300,000 residents receives
9 medical care through a Montifiore physician.
10 In the past 15 years, Montifiore has invested
11 $690,000,000 in the development of new state
12 of the art medical care facilities for the
13 care and well being of our Borough's
14 residents. Lastly, with some 11,000
15 associates, Montifiore is the largest private
16 employer in the Bronx.
17 The past decade has been a time of
18 extraordinary change of growth for our
19 Borough. We have seen a major resurgence in
20 investment, revitalization hope and
21 confidence. In fact, after the decades of the
22 1970s and 1980s, when we saw the population of
23 this Borough decline, the Bronx is today a
24 county that has seen substantial population
25 growth in the past 10 years.

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2 You may ask why Montifiore is so
3 vitally interested in the redrawing of our
4 Legislative Districts, in particular our
5 Congressional Districts. The answer is simple
6 and straight forward. Fair and equal
7 representation. Throughout the 1990s, the
8 Bronx has been ably and well served by our
9 Congressional delegation; Representatives
10 Engel, Serrano, Lowey and Crowley. Each has
11 been a good friend of the Bronx and each has
12 been well attuned to the health care needs of
13 our Borough's citizens, and each has
14 contributed to the resurgence of the Bronx.
15 But in particular, I must mention
16 congressman Elliott Engel. A tireless
17 supporter when it comes to the health care
18 issues of our country, and especially Bronx
19 and its constituents, Congressman Engel has
20 been exceptionally supportive and successful
21 in supporting and successful in securing
22 federal funding for the development of the
23 soon to open Childrens Hospital at
24 Montifiore. While located in the northwest
25 Bronx at our Moses Campus, this hospital will

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2 be a resource to all 350,000. That is
3 approximately one out of four residents,
4 350,000 children of the Bronx. 
5 A native and while a friend of the
6 Bronx, Congressman Engel has served his 
7 constituents well these many years. As we
8 have witnessed the rejuvenation of the Bronx,
9 now is not the time to radically change the
10 shape and boundaries of the Borough's
11 Congressional districts. As our county has
12 grown in population, in health, economic
13 vitality and in spirit, now is not the time to
14 dismember, fragment or lessen our Borough's
15 voice in Washington. Do not disenfranchise
16 us, do not lessen our political strength. We
17 add our voice to those who call for you to
18 retain our present number of representatives
19 in Washington, and retain if not in entirety
20 then substantially the Congressional districts
21 as they are drawn today. As the Legislature
22 necessarily readjusts districts to meet its
23 obligations, in the tradition of medicine, we
24 call upon you to do no harm to the well being
25 of the Borough of the Bronx and its

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2 residents. Thank you very much.
3 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Any questions?
4 Thank you very much, sir. We have been joined
5 by Senator Guy Velella. Senator Velella,
6 welcome. Assemblyman Jeff Dinowitz.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Thank you
8 for calling me. Good afternoon. I don't have
9 a prepared statement, but I did want to make a
10 few remarks regarding the Congressional
11 lines. I should start by saying that I think
12 a lot has changed in 10 years. I am an
13 incumbent in the Assembly, and my
14 understanding, and I am sure you all
15 understand it much better than I do is that
16 incumbency is certainly considered a
17 significant if not the number one factor under
18 court rulings in terms of drawing lines.
19 But something else has changed in
20 the past 10 years, and that is the ruling by
21 the Supreme Court with regard to how districts
22 can be drawn and what factors can be
23 considered and be the main consideration. 10
24 years ago, the Congressional District was
25 drawn, as I understand it, to be a minority

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2 influence district. It was a district which
3 had a majority African American and Latino
4 population, however with no particular group
5 as having a majority. My recollection at the
6 time, and I was very much around, was that one
7 reason there was this very unusual
8 configuration in the district which consisted
9 of a strip of land that went down the Harlem
10 River and included very little population at
11 points. It went down to the Concourse Village
12 Community and was not necessarily to include
13 that in the 17th District but as I recall to
14 exclude it from the 16th District, because
15 some people had a concern that there would be
16 too many African Americans in that particular
17 district.
18 I believe that a main consideration
19 in drawing lines should be to try to keep
20 communities together. I happen to represent
21 an Assembly district which is quite a diverse
22 district, which includes the community of
23 Riverdale, but also includes the communities
24 of Kingsbridge, Kingsbridge Heights, Marble
25 Hill, Cortland Village, Norwood, Woodlawn and

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2 Wakefield. A very diverse district, and I
3 must say if somebody came here today and said
4 that somebody from Riverdale came here and
5 testified well, we don't really feel that
6 Wakefield should be part of the same district
7 as Riverdale because there is no community of
8 interest because there may be demographic
9 differences between the two so keep Wakefield
10 out, Wakefield is a predominantly African
11 American community, I would be appalled if
12 somebody said that, and that person could
13 certainly and rightfully be criticized for
14 saying such a thing. I don't thinks it is in
15 our interest to suggest that different
16 communities be excluded from a particular
17 district. I think what we should look towards
18 is trying to keep neighborhoods together, to
19 keep regions together.
20 It happens that my district and
21 obviously I am not here to talk about the
22 Assembly lines, but my district, if you look
23 at it on a map, happens to be a very compact
24 district, and it does included people from
25 very different neighborhoods. It is diverse

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2 geographically, ethnically, racially,
3 economically, but the district works, and I
4 think when we look towards drawing the~
5 Congressional lines, we ought to look at those
6 type of factors.
7 I don't know what the Assembly
8 District is going to look like, but I guess
9 most of us hope that it is substantially the
10 same as how it has been in the past 10 years.
11 It is my hope that our Assembly District is
12 included in what is now the 17th Congressional
13 District, however that district looks. I
14 don't want to see our district divided among
15 Congressional Districts because I want to see
16 us have an impact in whatever Congressional
17 District we are in. But if you do the math
18 and you do the count and you look at the map,
19 if you start from the eastern tip of Suffolk
20 County and you work your way towards the rest
21 of the state, I do believe that when you come
22 to District 17, you are likely to end up in a
23 district, which if drawn in a reasonable
24 fashion, is 44 percent in the Bronx and 66
25 percent in the County of Westchester based on

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2 the population figure of I think it is
3 654,000.
4 If such a district is drawn, I
5 would urge that our community, the 81st
6 Assembly District or whatever the new number
7 is going to be, be included in that district.
8 But I would also urge that we not draw crazy
9 lines like I believe was done last time. I
10 know there were different reasons why things
11 may have been done last time, but if you look
12 at the Congressional District which is
13 represented and I am sure ably represented by
14 Representative Velasquez, I would think it
15 would be very difficult to justify that type
16 of geographical configuration given our recent
17 Supreme Court rulings, and frankly, with or
18 without those rulings, I think it is very
19 difficult to justify.
20 I think it is important primarily
21 that we consider keeping communities together,
22 keeping neighborhoods together. And whatever
23 district Riverdale is in, and that is part of
24 my district, I am sure that the
25 representatives of that district will work

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2 with all the communities. As I suggested
3 earlier, I think it would be appalling to
4 exclude Riverdale or any other neighborhood
5 from a district for whatever reasons other
6 than the numbers that suggest that it has to
7 be done. Once again, 56 percent Westchester,
8 44 percent Bronx is how the math would add up
9 if you draw the lines based upon working from
10 east to west. I would urge that the Bronx not
11 be chopped up. We don't have the zig zag type
12 lines such as the districts that were ruled
13 unconstitutional elsewhere in tbe country, and
14 we have more reasonably compact districts so
15 that people that represent those districts can
16 most adequately represent them. Thank you
17 very much.
18 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you. Are
19 there any questions? Chris Strunk? Jean
20 Bruce? Mr. Sementilli? Louis Lynch? Michael
21 Benjamin? Bridangia Escolasatico? Floninda
22 Reynoso? Edwin Ortiz? Catherine Regenhaud?
23 John Bruce? Arthur Taub? Daniel Figueroa?
24 MR. FIGUEROA: Good afternoon,
25 Task Force members and members of the

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2 audience. My name is Daniel Figueroa the
3 Third. I am president of the Community
4 Democratic Club. We are a club that serves
5 various communities in the Bronx, primarily
6 those in the south and northeast Bronx.
7 Members of our club reside in communities such
8 as Parkchester, Castle Hill, Westchester
9 Square, Sarica Avenue, Throgs Neck, Crotona
10 Park East, West Farms, Stratton Park, New
11 Castle, Kings Bridge and the Fordham Road
12 areas of the Bronx. I am here as a
13 representative of the club, and also as a
14 representative of the Hispanic, Latino, and
15 more specifically the Puerto Rican population
16 of the Bronx. I am an economic development
17 coordinator for a community based
18 organization. That is my day job. I am a
19 lawyer by training, and a community activist I
20 guess by hobby.
21 Electoral practices that discourage
22 or prevent citizens from exerciaing their
23 constitutional right to vote or discriminatory
24 election methods undermine the very principles
25 upon which our country was established. If we

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2 are to stay true to the concept of one person
3 one vote, then we must provide for a system
4 that it can be redress any unanticipated
5 wrongs or injustices that develop as our
6 society continues to evolve and grow. I know
7 that I am not saying anything that you don't
8 already know. Electoral reforms allow our
9 government to prevent practices that allow for
10 gerrymandering or for concentration of a
11 disproportionate amount of power in a small
12 number of voters.
13 The Voting Rights Act of 1965
14 itself has been amended on several occasions
15 to protect the citizens' right to full and
16 fair participation in government and has gone
17 as far as to make interference with voting
18 rights conferred by law a criminal offense.
19 Thus, it is our opinion that it is incumbent
20 upon the government and the public to further
21 protect voting rights by assuring the
22 participation of the community and the
23 reapportionment and redistricting process.
24 In so doing, we continue to
25 validate our democratic principles of

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2 representative government, and in so doing, we
3 ensure that community residents are provided
4 with equal opportunity to elect candidates of
5 their choice in accordance with the Voting
6 Rights Act and the Federal and State
7 constitutions.
8 Which brings us to New York State
9 and Bronx County. New York State itself is
10 approximately, almost, one fifth of that
11 population of New York State is currently
12 Hispanic, and half of the population in the
13 Bronx is currently Hispanic of various
14 ethnicities; Mexican, Puerto Rican, Dominican,
15 South American. The New York State population
16 as well as that of the Bronx continues to
17 grow. And what is very consistent in the
18 Hispanic population is that it suffers from an
19 easily identifiable malady that is associated
20 with urban and social life in the urban
21 community.
22 What are these social maladies?
23 The Hispanic population suffers from
24 disproportionately high poverty rates, high
25 school drop out rates, high unemployment

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2 rates, and a disproportionate amount of
3 homelessness. These issues must be addressed
4 by our elected officials in government, and
5 will be redressed within an electoral system
6 that is both responsive and accountable to its
7 citizens.
8 We are aware that race is not a
9 predominant factor in the redrawing of
10 Legislative lines. However, it is a factor,
11 and it is one that must be considered. We
12 also are aware of the concept of communities
13 of interests, which is what we believe. We
14 have now established in the Bronx with the
15 ever increasing Hispanic population. It is
16 our recommendation, it is our belief that the
17 Bronx can hold 10 and a half Assembly seats,
18 currently, with the other half corning from of
19 course an adjoining district outside the
20 county.
21 We have currently four
22 Congressional Districts located within the
23 County of the Bronx, of which only one sits
24 wholly in the county. It is our belief that
25 there is absolutely no rhyme or reason to that

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2 at this juncture in our government. We
3 believe that the Bronx can have two
4 Congressional seats, and if absolutely
5 necessary, that an adjoining seat, or if we
6 had to share a Congressional seat as we have
7 done with Queens County as opposed to New York
8 County.
9 It is because of the aforementioned
10 that I will now very humbly suggest that the
11 Task Force address the following. One of the
12 most important being that the Task Force
13 itself should contain more people of color,
14 more women, and specifically some Hispanic
15 representation. It is our belief that
16 information concerning the history, impact and
17 implementation of the redistricting laws and
18 its process should be made readily available
19 to. the general public. This information
20 should be made available in as many languages
21 as is reflective of the ethnic makeup of the
22 community. We should develop and implement a
23 public education program that correlates and
24 compliments the work that the Census Bureau
25 engages in.

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2 To accomplish these goals, we
3 believe that you can utilize preexisting not
4 for profit organizations such as work shops to -~
5 disseminate the information accordingly. Once
6 there are proposed maps and they are -
7 developed, they should be made available for I
8 public comment, in a meaningful and timely
9 fashion.
10 We have believe that you should
11 provide the public with access to election and
12 demographic data used in the redistricting
13 process, because we do have the wherewithal
14 within the community to assess and analyze
15 that data. Certainly, you should provide more
16 advanced notice of the Task Force hearings,
17 utilize mass communications more effectively,
18 both city wide and on a neighbor basis.
19 Lastly, involved the public schools, both
20 primary and secondary education institutions
21 in the training and development of community
22 based redistricting efforts. I would like to
23 thank you for allowing me to speak at this
24 hearing.
25 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Are there any

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2 questions?
3 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Yes, sir.
4 I want to compliment you on your list of
5 concerns, and I share, I believe I paid very
6 close attention, and I share all of them.
7 I want to ask you two questions.
8 One has to do with the sharing of data and
9 your ability and the groups that you are aware
10 of to use it. The first question would be is
11 your club prepared to try to draw a plan of
12 its own if you had the data?
13 MR. FIGUEROA: If we had ample
14 time, if this data is provided to our club in
15 a timely fashion, then yes, we could, but if
16 it was given to us last week and we needed it
17 yesterday it is an impossible task.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Point well
19 taken. Have you looked at the various
20 technical compatibility requirements between
21 software that you may have and computers that
22 you may have the Task Force? And if you can
23 make a recommendation today, what specifically
24 would we need to provide in terms of access?
25 MR. FIGUEROA: On a personal

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2 note, I have reviewed very little software,
3 but I am sure that we could come up with a
4 recommendation if I am given the resources
5 that we can work together on, doing something
6 of that nature. But we do have the
7 wherewithal to do that. Once again it is a
8 matter of accessing the appropriate
9 information, utilizing the appropriate
10 resources so that in fact we can participate.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I think
12 that we are on the same wavelength here, but
13 just to make sure that the record understands
14 that, and that the people here with us
15 understand that, you are saying in effect that
16 it doesn't do you much good if you get a paper
17 copy of a plan the day before we are going to
18 vote on it?
19 MR. FIGUEROA: Absolutely.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: In fact, if
21 I understand you correctly, you are also
22 saying that it doesn't do you much good to
23 have a paper copy of the plan within a month
24 ahead of time. You really need to have access
25 to the computer files and they need to be in a

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2 compatible format so your software can read
3 what our software has?
4 MR. FIGUEROA: Yes, and even to
5 take it a step farther where possible, if you
6 can, some information probably should be, for
7 lack of a better term translated into the
8 vernacular, into language that actually people
9 can understand, because that is important.
10 You can provide all this information and I may
11 understand it, some of my members may
12 understand it, but when it comes time for the
13 community at large to make intelligent,
14 educated decisions, they may not be able to,
15 and that makes our job that much harder.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I would
17 urge you and whoever is considering drafting
18 plans to look at the software that is
19 available. Frankly, this is the first
20 redistricting in the history of this country
21 where average citizens with modest means can
22 obtain the hardware and software to actually
23 draw up plans and then in effect be able to
24 communicate with us as to what you want. If
25 you are considering it, you or anybody else,

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2 sir, be very precise about what you are asking
3 us for, and make sure that you don't ask for
4 it in a way that the Task Force can appear to
5 comply but actually fall short on technical
6 compatibility.
7 My final question would be your
8 concern about the access to the political
9 data; the election returns, the enrollment
10 figures, et cetera. There are a number of
11 groups in the State, among them Common Cause,
12 The League of Women Voters, New York Public
13 Interest Research Group, who have quite
14 vocally and repeatedly articulated a point of
15 view that says that we should not even
16 consider that data, let alone share it with
17 you. I would assume that you don't agree with
18 them on that score?
19 MR. FIGUEROA: Basically.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: How
21 important is it to have that data? Why would
22 you not agree with them that we should be
23 blind to the political data?
24 MR. FIGUEROA: Well, obviously,
25 one of the things that we see in analyzing

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2 this data is voting patterns where we can
3 assess voter apathy, which is important to the
4 communities and even more so to your
5 communities in transition, the immigrant
6 communities, the Hispanic community. If there
7 is, in fact, an alarming level of apathy, of
8 which there is a disproportionate amount in
9 the Hispanic community as opposed to the
10 general population, we need to know this and
11 we need to be able to address it
12 intelligently.
13 It seems to me that political data
14 that could be analyzed statistically could
15 give us some insight on how we can address
16 these injustices, so that in fact political
17 data would be useful.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Many people
19 have told us quite emphatically that if we
20 were to accept the recommendations of these
21 other groups, remove the political data from
22 our files and not share them with you, that we
23 would cripple the process and not enhance it.
24 How do you feel about that?
25 MR. FIGUEROA: Well, I don't

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2 know. I guess there is a cliche that too many
3 chefs spoil the both. Obviously, these things
4 happen. We can over complicate a very simple
5 situation. We can do that because we are
6 human beings, we are emotional and sometimes
7 we have no choice. Can it cripple it? I'm
8 sure it can, if you wish to do so, if you use
9 it in that fashion. Again, if we are given
10 material in a timely fashion, if we can engage
11 in intelligent dialogue, then I believe that
12 the process moves along and we can resolve
13 whatever obstacles come before us.
14 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very
15 much.
16 MR. FIGUEROA: Thank you. Yes.
17 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: You mentioned
18 the current Congressional District lines as
19 multi county.
20 MR. FIGUEROA: Yes.
21 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: My question
22 basically is do you feel that maintaining
23 Assembly District lines all within the County
24 of the Bronx is an important goal, or is that
25 one that is not as important?

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2 MR. FIGUEROA: Well, I guess what
3 I believe is that it is important to be
4 consistent on point, and if I believe that
5 Congressional Districts located wholly within
6 a county best represents that district best,
7 then I would say the same for the Assembly
8 District.
9 You have a portion of a district in
10 the Assembly District in the Bronx in the
11 lower portion of the Bronx that shares with
12 residents in Manhattan and New York County.
13 Every neighborhood is different. Every
14 neighbor brings with it its own flavor, so to
15 speak. Manhattan people are Manhattan
16 people. Bronx people are Bronx people. There
17 is a Brooklyn accent, there is a Bronx
18 accent. We all want to feel like we belong to
19 something.
20 In representative government, I
21 should feel comfortable in the fact that my
22 elected official represents me. If I am in
23 the Bronx and I reside in the Bronx and my
24 concerns, my interests, my problems, my
25 issues, whatever social maladies I want to

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2 address, if they are all endemic to the Bronx,
3 then I want my representative to be from the
4 Bronx. So I would have to say the same about
5 an Assembly District. It serves the community
6 best if the elected official, if the district
7 lines are all contained within the same county
8 that they are elected to represent.
9 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one
11 comment. I was struck by your use of the term
12 "vernacular, " when you were talking about
13 breaking down the reapportionment terminology
14 so that people would understand.
15 MR. FIGUEROA: Yes.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would it be
17 your recommendation to this Task Force that we
18 publish and make sure for those new voices in
19 New York, that if we make that data available
20 on a web site, if we make information
21 available on a web site, that it should also
22 be made available in Spanish so that those
23 voices that you have described? One in every
24 five New Yorkers is of Hispanic origin of
25 varying types, so would it be your

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2 recommendation that we provide that
3 information in Spanish as well?
4 MR. FIGUEROA: Oh absolutely, 100
5 percent. Undoubtedly, emphatically, you name
6 the adjective.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The reason
8 why I ask that question is because one of the
9 things that a number of people have said is
10 that there is not, as you look at this panel,
11 people of color. I think we are all aware of
12 that. But one of the things that we also
13 believe is important is that as many people a
14 people as possible get their hands on this
15 data that we have. Not only the population
16 data but the political data, because this is a
17 process that involves political organization,
18 political groups. You see four people, four
19 elected officials at this table. We all fit
20 the definition of politicians. This is a
21 political process as well.
22 My hope is that the Task Force has
23 indeed scheduled for next week, at which time
24 my hope is that some of the views and the
25 issues that we raised in earlier hearings

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2 about access to the web site data that would
3 be available on the web site about how that
4 data is broken down, how it conforms to the
5 state constitutional requirements, that that
6 information will be available to everyone in
7 this state so that all of those forces will be
8 presenting us with plans that reflect the
9 reality of the politics on the ground and the
10 neighborhoods in the community.
11 I would just encourage you,
12 Mr. Figueroa, on behalf of both your community
13 Democratic Club and on those voices in the
14 Bronx that you represent and that you believe
15 as I believe must be heard at the tables
16 across this state. I would just strongly urge
17 you to take that information and draws us a
18 plan and set us a plan and tell us what you
19 think it ought to look like, because we are
20 going to use those plans and those ideas when
21 we devise one that will end up being the
22 Congressional, Senate and Assembly Districts
23 throughout this state. Come to the table and
24 show us a plan.
25 MR. FIGUEROA: Thank you, I will

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2 or we will.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If we get you
4 the data.
5 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: will you be
6 coming as a Democratic Club member submitting
7 a plan, or are you testifying as a member of
8 the community Democratic Club of the 76th AD?
9 MR. FIGUEROA: Let me see. The
10 question is in what --
II CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Capacity.
12 MR. FIGUEROA: --capacity am I
13 going to do this. Well, I am here as a
14 representative of the Community Democratic
15 Club. Again, while I have some very strong
16 interests in the Hispanic population by virtue
17 of my ethnicity, I certainly do not believe
18 that is the only population that we
19 represent. My club is a very diversified
20 club, also reflective of the microcosm of our
21 community so that, in fact, we are a majority
22 Hispanic, not the only form of membership.
23 There are other members, so that I would
24 prefer to represent whatever participation, or
25 whatever form of participation I take in this

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2 matter as a member of the club as opposed to
3 an individual citizen.
4 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very 
5 much.
6 MR. FIGUEROA: Thank you. 
7 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Luis Diaz.
8 Good afternoon.
9 MR. DIAZ: Good afternoon. My
10 name is Luis Diaz. I am the executive
11 director of the not for profit organization of
12 20 years standing serving the south, north
13 east, every part of the Bronx, and as I look
14 around I am also here representing all of the
15 Latino communities of the Bronx.
16 With all due represent to the
17 panel, and as I look around, it seems to me
18 that the message to the Latino community in
19 reference to the meeting that we are having
20 here today, it does not appear that either
21 that the message was either delivered with
22 content in a meaningful way, but as I look the
23 Panel, the Panel does note strike me as one
24 that is representative, overall representative
25 of the communities within the City of New

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2 York, and within the state at this point. I
3 don't see any non white people. I don't see
4 any females. Excuse me. You snuck in behind
5 me, so I apologize. With that being said, I
6 also happen to be a district leader in the
7 76th Assembly District.
8 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Which party?
9 MR. DIAZ: That is the Democratic
10 Party.
11 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: 76th.
12 MR. DIAZ: 76th, but I am here
13 also representing the not for profit
14 organization that I am the executive director
15 of.
16 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: If I could just
17 interrupt.
18 MR. DIAZ: Yes.
19 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: I am not sure
20 if you were here earlier, because the issue of
21 the composition of the Task Force has corne up
22 on several occasions, and we pointed out that
23 despite our best efforts in the Senate
24 Republican majority and in the Assembly
25 Republican minority, that we have not elected

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2 people of color to our conferences, despite
3 running candidates on numerous occasions, I
4 believe against even Senator Dollinger up in
5 Rochester twice. We do not have a member to
6 appoint. Senator Connor has opted to appoint
7 Senator Dollinger, and the speaker has his
8 appointing privileges.
9 MR. DIAZ: As I was saying, as
10 the Executive Director of NETS, this is a not
11 for profit organization that has been in
12 existence for over 20 years in the Bronx, and
13 I have been the executive director for the
14 last nine years. At NETS, we design our
15 programs to serve and treat the elderly beyond
16 the confines of a lot of the local areas that
17 I represent. At the inception of my tenure,
18 it was clear that NETS was utilized
19 efficiently and appropriately for the
20 communities it serves. However, it also was
21 abundantly clear that a disproportionate
22 number of programs, of program participants
23 were not reflective of the community one
24 actually saw on the street, in the stores, and
25 in the local eateries and movie houses.

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2 Upon further inspection, we noted
3 that the participants were primarily
4 Caucasians. In the last eight years, in the
5 communities of Castle Hill, Zarega Avenue
6 Tremont Avenue, Throgs Neck, Stratton Park, at
7 one time in the not so distant past, they were
8 populated by a majority of people of non
9 color. In the 1980s, these were communities
10 in transition. Today, a visual inspection of
11 these communities reveals there is a large
12 number of people of color that reside there,
13 with a strong concentration of Hispanics.
14 Again, as I mentioned earlier, I
15 don't see that here and in attendance in the
16 audience, and I am wondering how the Committee
17 tried to get the message out to all the
18 different communities within the boroughs. If
19 anyone can answer that, I would appreciate it.
20 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: We have done
21 extensive advertising in the newspapers. We
22 have spent a substantial amount of money. We
23 have reached out into different ethnic
24 newspapers, with substantial readership, so we
25 have reached out into the communities.

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2 MR. DIAZ: Because quite frankly,
3 I am here on the request of Assemblyman Peter
4 M. Rivera, because again, within my
5 organization, I was not aware that this was
6 actually taking place today, if it were not
7 for him providing that information to me.
8 By virtue of the fact that we are a
9 not for profit community based organization,
10 it is vital to our existence and productivity
11 that we maintain a constant poll of the
12 community. All shifts in population must be
13 duly noted, along with income levels and
14 educational achievements. Obviously, these
15 factors determine what types of programs and
16 services are necessary to the community.
17 People vote for representatives
18 that will protect and serve their interests in
19 government. People vote for representatives
20 that sympathize and emphasize with their daily
21 interests and needs. People vote for
22 representatives that they can identify with on
23 a social and political level. Very often,
24 people vote for candidates of their same
25 ethnicity and race, and although this should

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2 not be the only factor, it should be one of
3 the considerations.
4 Proper Legislative redistricting
5 will protect the voting rights of our
6 citizenry and further solidify the
7 individual's civil rights. The following
8 suggestions represent areas where I feel we
9 can provide the community with meaningful
10 voices in the Legislative redistricting
11 process. Information concerning the history,
12 impact and implementation of the redistricting
13 laws and its process should be made readily
14 available to the general public.
15 Develop and implement a public
16 education program that correlates to the work
17 that the Census Bureau engages every decade.
18 Definitely more advance notice for Task Force
19 hearings. To reiterate what Mr. Figueroa has
20 stated before me, the Bronx I feel should not
21 have four Congressional seats, and I feel with
22 same regard to the Congressional seats as
23 Mr. Figueroa stated.
24 The Bronx has very little in common
25 with Westchester County. I feel that a

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2 Congressional seat should be representative of
3 the community it serves. I'm not comfortable
4 with a seat being part of Westchester, part of
5 the Bronx and not necessarily being an equal
6 partner. So my suggestion is that the
7 redistricting of Congressional seats should go
8 from four to two in the Bronx.
9 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: We appreciate
10 your testimony. Obviously, the previous
11 testimony by Mr. Burrell, Rivers and Wharton
12 would disagree with what you have indicated.
13 Let me ask you this. If keeping all the
14 districts within the Bronx would diminish
15 minority representation in either of the
16 Assembly, Senate or Congress, would you be in
17 favor of that?
18 MR. DIAZ: No, I wouldn't be in
19 favor of it.
20 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you. Any
21 other questions? Thank you. Lizandra
22 Martinez.
23 MS. MARTINEZ: Good afternoon,
24 ladies and gentlemen. As a 26 year old life
25 long resident of the Bronx, as I look around,

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2 I see few Latinos, and I am not only here as a
3 representative of my community. I am also
4 here as a representative of Latino women. I
5 reside at 2150 East Tremont Avenue for
6 approximately a year, and I am a current
7 student at Lehman College working my way to a
8 Bachelor's Degree in psychology. I am the
9 mother of three children who attend PS 106 in
10 the parkchester area of the Bronx.
11 Through my relationship and ties to
12 the Community Democratic Club of the 76th
13 Assembly District, I was made aware of the
14 hearings for Legislative redistricting in the
15 Bronx. I was immediate interested and
16 inquired as to how I could be part of the
17 process. My efforts to inquire about the
18 hearings were difficult. I had to go through
19 numerous channels in order to get any
20 information. I feel that information should
21 have been easier to gather, for it is in the
22 best interest of the public, and they should
23 be informed.
24 The information should have been
25 disseminated throughout the entire borough,

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2 and in fact the entire city in a manner that
3 everyone would be able to hear about it. My
4 suggestion would be to hold smaller forums or
5 community meetings at the local public schools
6 or high schools. We need to focus on this and
7 many more problems throughout the city.
8 Another problem that I encountered
9 was that the little information I noticed was
10 in only one language. The city is made up of
11 many cultures, and among these cultures, there
12 are many different languages and dialects, and
13 we have to reflect that in our efforts to
14 educate the city. In my search for
15 information about the hearings, I was also
16 confronted with many more questions than what
17 I already had. I was asked what hearings. I
18 was amazed to find out how little people knew
19 of these hearings. I was also amazed to find
20 out how little is known about the different
21 aspects of the electoral process, and any
22 other dealings with politics.
23 People didn't know where to go or
24 how to find out where to register to vote. I 
25 think maps would be a good way to educate

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2 people as to where and how they could vote,
3 and make an impact in the area they live.
4 Mass media would be the best way to inform
5 people of hearings or any other events taking
6 place. That would impact not only
7 individually communities, but the entire city
8 as a whole. I believe the only way to remedy
9 this situation would be to educate, inform and
10 enlighten our people.
11 Latinos represent communities of
12 interest, and that isn't the only reason why
13 we should exact change. We also need to
14 reflect the changes in the community within
15 the last 10 years. Just look at the Census
16 Report for 2000, and you will see that the
17 complexion of the Bronx has changed. I am
18 here not only as a representative of the
19 community, but I also wanted to act as a voice
20 for my fellow Latinos. Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you. Are
22 there any questions?
23 MR. HEDGES: I have one
24 question. What media outlets would you
25 suggest that we use that we didn't? Because

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2 we did advertise in the New York Times, the
3 New York Post, the Daily News, El Diario, the
4 Amsterdam News. In El Diario, it was in
5 Spanish. The Assembly web site has the
6 hearing announcement posted in English and in
7 Chinese, and we spent tens of thousands of
8 dollars to try to reach out to the community.
9 If we were unsuccessful, any advice that you
10 have got would be appreciated.
11 MS. MARTINEZ: Well, speaking for
12 the younger generation, we have radio and
13 television.
14 MR. HEDGES: It is simply cost
15 prohibitive. As it is, we spent an awful lot
16 of money. The only Spanish language newspaper
17 that we were using was El Diario. My
18 understanding is that Newsday now has a
19 Spanish language paper, but it doesn't have a
20 lot of circulation in the Bronx. It is
21 largely in Queens.
22 MS. MARTINEZ: In my area where I
23 am from, we have the Parkchester News and the
24 Bronx Times, which are smaller newspapers that
25 have a larger distribution within the certain

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2 community. I am pretty sure that other
3 communities have their own corresponding
4 newspapers which they could have advertised
5 in.
6 MR. HEDGES: Do people in your
7 community read El Diario?
8 MS. MARTINEZ: Yes, they do, but
9 in your efforts to get the news out, not only
10 El Diario should have been used, but also the
11 smaller newspapers which are usually free of
12 charge and they are left at door steps or left
13 at the apartments.
14 MR. HEDGES: I don't mean this as
15 a criticism of you. Part of the access we
16 have had was, in fact, Assemblyman Rivera
17 doing the community outreach, and we are glad
18 that he did.
19 MS. MARTINEZ: That is how I
20 heard of it, through him.
21 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Any other
22 questions?
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I would
24 like to say that in addition to what the Task
25 Force did, our Assembly Republican minority

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2 office contacted the Bronx Times, Bronx News
3 12, and I notice that the Bronx Times is here
4 today covering the hearing. Bronx News 12 had
5 mention of it this morning, as well as on the
6 radio. So we haven't done the best job, but
7 we are constantly striving to do better. I
8 think this hearing, frankly, you should have
9 been at some of the other hearings. This is
10 better coverage than any of the ones we have
11 had before.
12 MS. MARTINEZ: I am sure that
13 people watching Bronx 12 today will see this
14 hearing and will hopefully come out for the
15 next election.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I hope that
17 they do. Thank you for your interest.
18 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Peter Rivera.
19 MR. RIVERA: Hi, how are you. As
20 you can see from my name, I am the son of
21 Assemblyman Peter Rivera. I am a born and
22 raised citizen of The Bronx, New York. I am
23 23rd years old. I live at 3032 Metropolitan
24 Avenue in the Parkchester area. I am a
25 graduate of the State University SUNY system,

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2 graduated from SUNY Albany in 1999. I am also
3 currently a law student at Saint Johns
4 University in Queens.
5 I am here because my biggest
6 concern is basically for the welfare of the
7 children in the community public schools,
8 about what we can do for education. I
9 currently work for a nonprofit organization,
10 and we help out with after school activities.
11 What I constantly see in my work there is that
12 there isn't enough funding for resources for
13 the children in after school programs. And n
14 concern is that if we do any redistricting, if
15 we can work more to get more funding for the
16 children in education.
17 I also have concerns about, again,
18 the way that I had to hear about through this
19 through people in the community. Again I am
20 an avid television watcher. I didn't see any
21 ads anywhere. We have New York One, Bronx
22 Net, 41, 47, different local stations, local
23 papers. Again, I didn't see it, and I wasn't
24 aware of it. I had spoken to people in the
25 community. But basically I would advocate

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2 redistricting. I think it would be a positive
3 things. I also note that there are no one
4 here representing Latinos. I think that is an
5 important factor. Not the decisive factor but
6 an important factor. I think we are becoming
7 a larger population, and I think that to be
8 taken into consideration.
9 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very
10 much. Questions? Thank you. David
11 Griffiths? Is David here?
12 MR. RIVERA: With your
13 permission, I would like to have my father
14 come up and say a few words.
15 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: More than
16 welcome.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA: I just want
18 to add a couple of comments to the comments
19 you have heard so far. I will make my remarks
20 very brief. First, my district was the result
21 of redistricting. My district did not exist
22 prior to 1992. It was through the efforts of
23 Roman Hedges and several of the other
24 individuals who are here today that the
25 district was created, that I could run and get

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2 elected. In order for me to run and get
3 elected, a district had to be created that was
4 52 percent Hispanic. It might not have been
5 the predominant reason why my district was
6 created that way, but that was the dominant
7 reason why I ran. I ran because it was a
8 district that I thought that I could get
9 elected in.
10 When you look at the Hispanic
11 community, we happen to be a marginalized
12 community. There was somebody who spoke a
13 little while ago who talked about some of the
14 ills that affected the Hispanic community. We
15 are a marginalized community. By that fact,
16 we may participate in events like this. By
17 that fact, we may not be able to voice our
18 concerns as often and in as many different
19 places as we should. By that fact, we are
20 affected by the language issue, by a cultural
21 issue, and by an education issue and a whole
22 slew of other issues.
23 But we are here, we are here in
24 huge numbers, and our numbers have been
25 increasing. And whatever changes we decide to

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2 make, albeit in the Bronx, albeit it in the
3 City of New York, albeit in the State of New
4 York, that fact should be reflected and that
5 should be a consideration in the way that the
6 State Assembly looks like for the next 10
7 years, and the way the State Senate looks like
8 for the next 10 years, and the way Congress
9 will look like for the next 10 years.
10 I think that is so key, because as
11 was mentioned by several other speakers, and I
12 think it was mentioned by Judge Brennan in a
13 1982 or 1984 decision on this fact. He was
14 talking about African Americans, and he said
15 African Americans vote differently than other
16 people. You know, Hispanics vote differently
17 than other people, and Irish vote differently
18 than other people and Italians vote
19 differently than other people, because.
20 The truth is there is no other
21 people. The truth is people vote for many
22 particular reasons. One of them being they
23 like to elect people that they feel
24 comfortable electing; albeit a woman, albeit a
25 young person, albeit an older person. But

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2 people vote for people that they feel can
3 represent them on a cultural basis, on a
4 personal basis, on an economic basis, whatever
5 that maybe may be, or on a political basis.
6 Whatever that may be, that is who they vote
7 for, that is what their concerns are, that is
8 who they want to get elected.
9 So we should take some of those
10 issues into account when we start looking at
11 the Bronx and when we start drawing districts
12 to represent, that truly and effectively
13 represent the concerns of the people of the
14 Bronx.
15 I would close with just a few words
16 about things that I have heard. I want to
17 thank Bill Parment. As Bill knows, I have
18 taken a personal interest in the whole area of
19 redistricting, and held several hearings, held
20 several events on this issue. I want to thank
21 Bill and the platform of attendants for their
22 participation in truly and effectively getting
23 the word out, and truly and effectively
24 participating with the Hispanic community on
25 such an important issue.

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2 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you. Any
3 questions? David Griffiths? Joan Jackson?
4 Henry Reid? Ellie Jurado? Connie Reilly?
5 Steven Bernardo?
6 MS. REILLY: Good afternoon. I
7 am going to be very brief. I don't have a
8 prepared statement. I just want to speak on
9 my part. I am a life long Bronx resident, and
10 a resident of the Woodlawn community for over
11 15 years, as well as an active member of the
12 Woodlawn Heights Taxpayers and Community
13 Association. That association is over 100
14 years old. Many of the residents that live in
15 Woodlawn have lived there for over 50 years.
16 We have an awful lot of seniors, and I am
17 speaking on behalf of those who could not be
18 here today. What they would like me to say is
19 please don't change our districts. We are
20 very happy with our representation in
21 Woodlawn. The reason we know about these
22 redistricting hearings is that State Senator
23 Guy Velella advised our community, and I just
24 happened to be the person who was available to
25 speak today. So I would just like to say that

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2 the feeling of the people in the Woodlawn
3 community, the 34th Senatorial District, is
4 that State Senator Velella has been valuable
5 to everything we have needed through the
6 years, be it Little League, be it community
7 association issues and things of that nature.
8 But also, he has been helpful in keeping us in
9 the north area of the Bronx and connecting us
10 with other community associations. These
11 associations that are covered by other
12 districts.
13 He has worked in a bipartisan
14 manner with other Assembly people and State
15 Senators and Congress people and people of
16 that nature. But in short, I would just like
17 to say we would like to keep the status quo.
18 I guess maybe because we are an old time
19 community, we would like to keep things the
20 way they are.
21 We are also connected with
22 Westchester as part of our district. But I
23 feel that people in the north area of the
24 Bronx do have a lot in common. We are only
25 one block away from each other, actually, so

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2 many of our children go to the same Catholic
3 schools or play in the same little league, so
4 we do have a connection with our neighbors to
5 the north. If you have any questions, I would
6 be happy to answer.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where is
8 Woodlawn? Can you tell me?
9 MS. REILLY: Woodlawn is bordered
10 by the Major Deegan Expressway, Van Cortland
11 Park, White Plains Avenue in Yonkers and 233rd
12 Street. If you see Woodlawn Cemetery, you
13 will probably find a little enclave called
14 Woodlawn.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
16 MS. REILLY: You are welcome.
17 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Thank you very
18 much. Susan Pait? Dr. Steven Bernardo? Hari
19 Bajraktari? Harry Fader?
20 MR. FADER: Thank you
21 Mr. Chairman. My name is Harry Fader. I am a
22 life long resident of the Bronx. I am the
23 past president of the Bronxwood Y, as well as
24 the current Chairman, honorary Chairman of the
25 Board. I am not a member of a political

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2 club. I have contributed to Democrats and
3 Republicans, some sitting right in this room,
4 and I have worked and volunteered for African
5 American candidates, Latino candidates, as
6 well as white candidates.
7 As I said, I have lived in the
8 Bronx all my life except for one year 
9 when my parents came to America from Germany
10 as survivors of the Holocaust. Since then,
11 for 50 years, we have resided in various
12 sections of the Bronx, starting with the
13 University and Fordham Road area, going to
14 Pelham Parkway, and now living in Riverdale.
15 I have attended the public schools in the
16 Bronx in PS 91 to Crescent Junior High School
17 as well as Columbus High School, and I have
18 raised and educated my children here in the
19 Bronx.
20 I am here to urge you to keep the
21 districts as contiguous as possible to avoid
22 gerrymandering the communities. I know that
23 if you start at the tip of Suffolk County in
24 Montauk and go through Nassau County where I
25 work, that you will come across to the Bronx

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2 and will have to move somewhere from the tip
3 of the north Bronx into Westchester. Well, as
4 many of you know, we don't pay tolls to go to
5 Westchester. We do pay tolls to go to
6 Manhattan, and we do pay tolls to go to 
7 Queens, even though we are part of one
8 community. So I would urge you to keep us as
9 contiguous as possible. Our shopping and
10 where I buy food and stuff just could as
11 easily be in the Bronx someplace as it is in
12 Westchester. As a matter of fact, I was at my
13 cleaners on the way here, and they are on
14 McLean Avenue, which is in one of the areas of
15 Woodlawn.
16 I urge you to do to the right thing
17 without regards to race, creed, color or
18 religion. No one will challenge your
19 integrity or the work of the Committee. We
20 are in New York. We are not in Florida. I
21 wish you well in your deliberations, and I
22 urge you not to divide our community. Thank
23 you.
24 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Questions?
25 Thank you, sir. I have gone through the list

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2 now twice. Does anybody who has not testified
3 wish to speak? Sir?
4 MR. SEMENTILLI: Egidio
5 Sementelli. I am sorry I am late. I have
6 submitted a statement up front at the desk, so
7 I will read it also. Before I do that, I just
8 happened to pick up the Bronx Press Review
9 today, and the editorial of the Bronx Press
10 Review states that you are a kangaroo court,
11 and that having sat here with some of the
12 distinguished Assemblymen and State Senators,
13 I definitely know you are not a kangaroo
14 court.
15 I also would like to forward the
16 Bronx Press Review to your Committee for
17 review, because it is besides being anti Task
18 Force, it is also taking advantage of their
19 ink and barrel to continue this anti
20 Republican and anti Italian, anti our
21 Senator's efforts again, so I want to submit
22 this statement.
23 Ladies and gentlemen, the purpose
24 of this submission is to officially record our
25 disappointment in the Italian community for

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2 the prior decisions made by the last convened
3 Reapportionment Task Force of the 1990s. The
4 Bronx Italian Community was systematical 
5 denied representation in the Assembly
6 through the bizarre actions and influences of
7 our Bronx Democratic County leadership, which
8 eventually caused the Italian Community to
9 lose political power.
10 This decision of the Federal Court
11 to eliminate race as the compelling factor
12 does not completely remove race or ethnicity
13 in the equation of creating a district. In
14 fact, it strengthens the concept that race
15 must be protected from political
16 disenfranchising. This means that were there
17 is an established pattern of empowerment
18 identified by race or ethnicity proven by a
19 traditional establishment of voting patterns,
20 said patterns must not be divided for the
21 purpose of diluting a voting block, and
22 thereby disfranchising group or groups of
23 people.
24 Regrettably, the Democratic
25 Leadership of Bronx County in the early 1990s

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2 was concerned with the Italian Community
3 because of their large enrollment in the Bronx
4 Republican Party, and of their concentration
5 being composed of in two Assembly Districts
6 known then as the 75th and 81st Assembly
7 District. The Democratic Leadership decided
8 that instead of creating one Assembly with
9 identifiable similarities that would have
10 reinforced a community of roughly 200,000
11 people, the majority being Italian-American,
12 the Leadership decided to create two separate
13 districts that would have a majority of
14 Democratic enrollment. The new district
15 became known as the 80th and 82nd Assembly
16 District, and from which this Task Force must
17 review in accordance to their mandate.
18 The obvious politicalization in the
19 creation of these two districts at the expense
20 of the Italian-American Community was the fact
21 that roughly 60 percent of the district in the
22 80th and 82nd are similar. These similarities
23 will meet the applicable revised criteria in
24 establishing a district today with the
25 consideration of the newly effective court

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2 ru1ings. These are, for examp1e, socia1
3 dynamics, economic parties, geographic
4 considerations, demographic, and construction
5 based similarities. Furthermore, the portions
6 described above reveal an interesting fact.
7 Although the enrollment is a Democratic
8 majority by three to one, and I repeat that,
9 three to one, the District elects Italian
10 American Republicans and Italian American
11 Democratic public officers such as Senator Guy
12 Velella that is here today.
13 The roughly 40 percent of the
14 district is what can be described as the
15 traditional Democratic liberal voting block
16 which produces non-Italian Democratic
17 candidates, and is geographically,
18 demographically and economically different to
19 the rest of the district. These distinguished
20 differences are the factors that keep the
21 balance of power in check. To define this
22 idea more objectively, I bring forth another
23 example. Co-op City, Pelham Bay, Country
24 Club, City Island, and Throgs Neck area known
25 as the 82nd Assembly District is a community

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2 in two Districts. The District is composed of
3 the 60 percent described above as being one
4 community, and the 40 percent being Co-op City
5 with over 40,000 people. As many of you know,
6 Co-op City is one of the largest complexes in
7 the world. It has different problems such as
8 transportation and building maintenance issues
9 that the rest of the district does not have.
10 It has its own Police Department and its own
11 power plant. These are examples that make
12 communities different from one another, and
13 objectively representative of the criteria
14 needed to create a district.
15 I am using the example of Co-op
16 City because I was a Democratic candidate for
17 State Assembly in 1994, and had teamed-up with
18 the not so popular, then, Reverend Al Sharpton
19 when he was a candidate for u.S. Senate in
20 that district. This experience allowed me to
21 understand the different dynamics of ethnic
22 and racial politics that we must deal with
23 from a publicly moral position to better a
24 community instead of dividing.
25 In the 80th Assembly District, we

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2 have a clearer picture of the different
3 dynamics that was part of disenfranchising the
4 Italian Community. The Democratic political
5 influences in the 80th once again came to the
6 conclusion that too many Italians in one area
7 means too many Republicans, and therefore must
8 be divided to disenfranchise the Italian
9 Community. The irony was that it was divided
10 in a way that the Democratic Party was forced
11 to establish two separate political
12 subdivision called A and B Districts for their
13 politically elected District Leaders. In
14 fact, the Party rules had to be modified for
15 this. So this is another example of the
16 dividing of a district and what had to be done
17 after to have a community, or to say that
18 there is a community there as one. These
19 actions are examples of what took place in the
20 1990s to protect political power at the
21 expense of the Italian community.
22 In addition, the anti-Italian
23 policies are surfacing again by trying to
24 restrict political lines by using county
25 borders as the means to deny Italian-American

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2 representation. I am referring to the 34th
3 Senatorial District being represented by
4 Senator Guy Velella. This district is
5 composed of a large portion of the 80th and
6 82nd Assembly District, and also large portion
7 of Westchester County. To maintain equal
8 representation in the Italian community, this
9 district must be allowed to follow the moving
10 shifts by their core constituencies of t.hat
11 district. This means that the 34th District
12 must continue to represent parts of the
13 District that are similar in the social
14 dynamics we call a community. Any deviation
15 from the idea that the 34th District would not
16 be allowed to cross borders is an injustice to
17 voters who have validated their intentions by
18 voting for Senator Velella on numerous
19 elections cycles. This would be a dishonor to
20 the people of the district, especially after
21 the voters have spoken.
22 Therefore, I respectfully request
23 that part of the 80th and 82nd Assembly
24 District be combined to a level of conformity
25 and similarities described above in making a

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2 political district. In addition, the natural
3 shift of population to the north in the 34th
4 Senatorial district must be respected and
5 honored, and our Representatives must have the
6 right to shift in accordance to demographics
7 and not by political influence inspired by
8 partisan politics. The people's performance
9 in the elective process must be upheld and
10 reviewed as an objective criteria in
11 establishing a political district.
12 I just wanted to pass the editorial
13 of the Bronx Press Review. As I stated, they
14 referred to your group as a kangaroo court. I
15 don't believe that. Especially with such
16 distinguished elected officials, and thank you
17 for coming to the Bronx. I also would like to
18 say that, which I didn't mention in the letter
19 here by combining the 80th and 82nd Assembly
20 District, we have a unique opportunity to
21 create also a minority district, possibly
22 because of the numbers that are on the
23 outskirts of the District would be a Latino
24 District. So we have the opportunity of
25 reinforcing the Italian community, and also a

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2 Latino district.
3 I just wanted to add about the 34th
4 District, as stated in the editorial page of
5 the Bronx Press Review, in reference to the
6 law that restricts Senatorial candidates or
7 districts from crossing borders, that is an
8 injustice, because we have a lot of
9 simi1arities from the Bronx, especia11y as I
10 described in 60 percent of the 80th and the
11 82nd that are similar to us, the communities
12 that are located up in Westchester County,
13 Mount Vernon and parts of Yonkers. They are
14 economically similar in a lot of the areas;
15 socially, ethnic and racial and so on. So
16 there are a lot of criteria that can be
17 utilized to reinforce that district and there
18 should not be a restriction on that. I thank
19 you for your time, and I will follow up with
20 the Bronx Press Review and tell them that
21 there is no kangaroo court here today. I do
22 appreciate it. Thank you so much.
23 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Are there any
24 questions? Thank you. Does anybody who has
25 not testified wish to testify at this time?

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2 Yes, sir. Please step up.
3 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: Senator, I am
4 told we are joined by Member of the Assembly
5 Jeffrey Klein.
6 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Welcome.
7 DR. BERNARDO: Good afternoon. I
8 want to say hello first to my State Senator.
9 My name is Dr. Steven Bernardo. I am the
10 President of the Association of Riverdale
11 Cooperatives representing 13,000 apartments in
12 about 100 buildings in the northwest Bronx.
13 That is my volunteer job. By
14 trade, I am a Superintendent of Schools, and
15 as a result of those two roles, I fully
16 understand the importance of community,
17 continuity and neighborhood. Riverdale has
18 been blessed, quite frankly, with a spate of
19 representation that is concentric. Everyone
20 knows all of our Legislators. I think of
21 Senator Velella as Guy. I don't think of him
22 as Senator Velella. I think of our
23 Assemblyman Jeffrey Dinowitz as Jeffrey, and I
24 think of our Congressman as Elliott, and all
25 of us feel that way.

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2 Obviously, this Tribunal is going
3 to be reviewing issues as it relates to
4 redistricting not as it relates to
5 individuals. But clearly, my sense of
6 community comes as a result of my relationship
7 with those public officials, or I would be
8 taking a different position.
9 Our position as an association is
10 that to the extent possible, we highly
11 recommend and hope that this group take into
12 consideration the idea of keeping all of our
13 neighborhoods within the same Legislative
14 scheme. That is to say be it the City Council
15 District, the Assembly District or the State
16 Senate District and the Congressional District
17 remain within each other to the extent
18 possible. I think it is to the advantage of
19 our community.
20 We then do not have to deal with
21 multiple people when we have multiple district
22 lines when we want to understand who
23 represents us. We are able to marshal our
24 positions together. If I may give you a few
25 examples, this past year, Congressman Engel

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2 was instrumental in helping us develop a web
3 site for the co-ops in Riverdale. At the same
4 time, I was able to go to him and Assemblyman
5 Dinowitz with respect to some tax code
6 issues. Our State Senator Velella has always
7 been available and accessible to us, so we
8 rea11y care that things are in the same scheme
9 the same sense of relationships if at all
10 possible.
11 The co-ops at Riverdale are,
12 despite what you may have heard from other
13 places, a very diverse community. We have
14 senior citizens and we have people there in
15 the family formation stage. We have people in
16 rent stabilized apartments, people in free
17 market apartments, people who are more
18 involved in co-ops. We have a whole series of
19 relationships that we are involved in with
20 respect to that from vendors to managing the
21 co-ops. So on behalf of the 13,000 apartments
22 in 100 buildings, on behalf of the Association
23 of Riverdale Co-ops, I would request that you
24 consider the Congressional District of the
25 present 18th Congressional District as a part

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2 and totally within the Riverdale community so
3 that Riverdale remains with one Congressman.
4 Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Are there any
6 questions? Thank you very much, sir.
7 DR. BERNARDO: Thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: Does anybody
9 wish to testify at this time, before we close
10 the meeting? If not, is there a motion ,to
11 adjourn?
12 CHAIRMAN PARMENT: So moved.
13 CHAIRMAN SKELOS: The meeting is
14 adjourned. Thank you very much.
15 (TIME NOTED: 3:00 P.M.)
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4 CERTIFICATION 
5
6
7
8 I, Robert J. Pollack, a Notary
9 Public in and for the State of New
10 York, do hereby certify:
11
12 THAT the foregoing is a true and
13 accurate transcript of my stenographic
14 notes.
15
16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have
17 hereunto set my hand this 9th day of
18 July 2001.
19
20
21 
22 ________________________________________
23 ROBERT J. POLLACK
24
25
EN-DE REPORTING, A Spherion Agency
(212) 962-2961