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STATE OF NEW YORK LEGISLATIVE TASK FORCE ON DEMOGRAPHIC RESEARCH AND REAPPORTIONMENT CONGRESSIONAL AND STATE LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING Public Meeting June 12, 2001 Assembly Parlor Room 306 Capitol Building Albany, New York |
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
2
3 SENATOR DEAN G. SKELOS, Co-chairman
4 ASSEMBLYMAN WILLIAM L. PARMENT, Co-Chairman
5 SENATOR RICHARD A. DOLLINGER
6 ASSEMBLYMAN CHRIS ORTLOFF
7 VINCENT P. BURY
8 ROMAN HEDGES
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13 LEWIS M. HOPPE- Co-Executive Director
14 DEBRA A. LEVINE - Co-executive Director
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1 SENATOR DEAN G. SKELOS,
2 CO-CHAIRMAN:
3 This is a meeting of the Task Force
4 on Demographic Research and Reapportionment.
5 My name is State Senator Dean G.
6 Skelos and with me are co-chairman William Parment
7 and to my left are members of the Task Force; Senator
8 Richard Dollinger, Chris Ortloff, Mr. Vincent Bruy
9 and Roman Hedges to the left of Chris Ortloff and
10 Lewis Hoppe and Debra Levine.
11 The purpose of this Task Force
12 meeting is to discuss various aspects of public
13 participation and concerning acts as to information
14 at the Task Force. So, what I'd like to do is at
15 this time bring up access to the Task Force
16 redistricting system the members and their staff and
17 I'd ask Mr. Hedges to comment on this.
18 ROMAN B. HEDGES: We circulated
19 yesterday the recommendations from the two
20 co-executive directors of the Task Force, Lewis Hoppe
21 and Debra Levine.
22 Their basic proposal was that the
23 four legislative conferences be given identical
24 access to common data, common hardware, common
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1 software, so that each of the four legislative
2 conferences has the ability to construct plans of
3 their own, to analyze plans proposed by others and to
4 have the ability to work independently but with
5 common data. And that access will consist of, under
6 the proposal that was made to work stations with
7 access to the central computers of the Task Force
8 that are maintained by the joint staff and those work
9 stations will run software developed by the Task
10 Force's professional staff. It would be the same for
11 each of the four conferences. It will be in a more
12 technical sense, it's arch info software which is
13 made by a company in California and we have developed
14 an application that will allow us to do the work of
15 redistricting plans and to analyze the consequence of
16 those demographically and politically. And in
17 addition to that, that we will make available
18 statistical software to the conferences so that they
19 could do the things of analysis that are necessary to
20 demonstrate compliance with the voting rights act for
21 example, and more specifically that would be
22 statistical package called SAS. And that is
23 something that the Task Force has had for about
24 twenty years. What that does is ensure that everyone
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1 has the access to the same demographic information
2 and political information and that we would propose
3 for purposes of doing the political analysis that the
4 last three sets of elections be made available, the
5 '96, '98 and the 2000. Obviously, there are going to
6 be elections coming up in the city where voting
7 rights issues might very well surface. So as we
8 identify those additional races, I think their
9 proposal will be to make those available equally to
10 the conferences and as well to the public. With
11 respect to issues beyond access for the legislature,
12 they also propose that the same data that we are
13 talking about, that the legislature would have access
14 to, be made available to the public and the idea
15 there would be that there are a couple of different
16 formats that people might find useful. One of them
17 would be to put the census and political information
18 on CD roms. They are relatively inexpensive to
19 duplicate and could be made available for the cost of
20 duplication and in addition to that --
21 VINCENT P. BRUY: That was done ten
22 years ago?
23 MR. HEDGES: That was done ten
24 years ago although the technology was a little
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1 different. We did floppy disks ten years ago rather
2 than CDs. So, it took lots of floppy disks instead
3 of just a few CDs to make it available. In addition
4 to that, we would propose that paper maps be
5 available at certain appropriate levels of geography
6 for areas like the capital district. That would mean
7 you would need a city map for the city of Albany, but
8 we'll probably only have town outline maps for the
9 towns since the constitution prohibits breaking of
10 towns in constructing legislative districts. And,
11 then, finally we have suggested here that the Task
12 Force go about the business of establishing a Website
13 and that Website have the same data available so the
14 people could access this data over the Internet and
15 download the data as well and that there the
16 proposals were in the form of making the geographic
17 information system files the Task Force has available
18 to the public as well as making outline maps made
19 available along with political and census data.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Do you have any
21 idea how long it would take to make that Website?
22 MR. HEDGES: Well, we have talked
23 with a couple of vendors in the way of gathering
24 information because obviously we have to go through
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1 the State's procurement process to actually select
2 somebody but probably in the neighborhood of six
3 weeks or so to make that data available and that's
4 about the same time frame that we are talking about
5 for making available to the legislative conferences;
6 the same data and the same software.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN WILLIAM L. PARMENT: I
8 don't think you mentioned the physical location of
9 the equipment available to the --.
10 MR. HEDGES: The proposal is since
11 each of the four conferences has office space at 250
12 Broadway and that's physically where the Task Force
13 is located, that in the respective office areas each
14 would set up satellite offices that are available to
15 them and uniquely to them. So, that the Assembly
16 majority will have an office site at 250 Broadway as
17 with the Assembly minority.
18 There is a slight technical
19 difference between what the Senate has proposed and
20 what the Assembly has proposed. The Senate actually
21 has run wire to those locations, so that there is a
22 direct connection to the computer. The Assembly
23 hasn't and is proposing rather that they take
24 advantage of the fact that there is an Assembly
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1 telephone switch in office space in the building and
2 that the wires already exist to get to that room, so
3 that they could be connected in that room and then
4 redirected back to the Task force.
5 So, the Assembly majority/minority
6 will have the same technology. The Senate
7 majority/minority would have the same technology but
8 they would differ in a slight technical aspect from
9 one another, senate to assembly.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: And there had been
11 staffing allocations --.
12 MR. HEDGES: There have. Each of
13 the two legislative houses has made available to
14 themselves and the majority and to their respective
15 minorities of staff allocations, a budget for the
16 next two years that seems, at least based on informal
17 conversations, to be satisfactorily.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Roman, just
19 so that I -- I just want to restate this to make sure
20 I understand and that this is what in fact, we are
21 proposing. In addition, to the opportunities for the
22 four conferences, the proposal made by the
23 co-chairs -- or the co-executive directors, I should
24 say -- was to make available to the public on a
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1 Website all of the census data that we have access to
2 and all of the political data that we will be dealing
3 with.
4 MR. HEDGES: That's correct and
5 just to give a flavor for why we would want to make
6 the census data available, in our examination of the
7 census information, we found a few instances where
8 the census bureau has sort of mistakenly identified
9 population. For example, the -- prison is located in
10 the wrong block. There are a couple of other prisons
11 that have been located in the wrong town. We want to
12 make sure that the data that we are using, which
13 reflects the knowledge that we gain as we're going
14 through it, is available to the public which means we
15 need to provide an independent of the census bureau.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: In regard to
17 the political data in the process of developing this
18 data, if we were to look at data beyond what is in
19 this proposal, would it be that -- my assumption is
20 that we would make that available as well.
21 MR. HEDGES: I would certainly
22 think that we should; and, some examples of that kind
23 of information are data that are not available in the
24 '96 through '98-2000 cycles. We have available to us
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1 information about the 1993 mayoral election where
2 there certainly is the ability to correlate that
3 information with the 1990 census for purposes of
4 doing an analysis pursuant to voting rights and I
5 would think that if we use those data, we would want
6 to make that available to the public as well.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: And I might
8 point out that -- and Chris Ortloff -- is the
9 question that many of our hearing witnesses on this
10 question -- the need for the political data, in fact,
11 is associated that directly with court case law
12 dealing with the voting rights act of 1965 and its
13 amendments.
14 MR. HEDGES: Certainly we do need
15 to do that as a matter of law and I think as a matter
16 of policy that we tend to look at political data and
17 if we are going to do that, I think we should make
18 that available to anyone else who wants to look at
19 that.
20 MR. BRUY: This would include '97
21 Mayor's race?
22 MR. HEDGES: I would think so.
23 Again, insofar as we have been able
24 to collect the data and able to make it available to
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1 ourselves --.
2 MR. BRUY: And the bottom line is
3 having been the co-chair ten years ago, refreshing my
4 recollection, all this information eventually would
5 be submitted to the justice department in terms of
6 their pre -- the plan and the voting rights counties.
7 MR. HEDGES: Absolutely and again
8 insofar as we have access to it and insofar as the
9 staff has been able to render a machine readable and
10 we have it available to us, we should make it
11 available to anyone who needs to see it and certainly
12 the justice department and --.
13 SENATOR RICHARD A. DOLLINGER: Just
14 a question about the data part of 1996. Did the Task
15 Force assemble that data for the earlier part of the
16 decade when you had the political data assembled?
17 MR. HEDGES: I think in part the
18 answer is yes, but there is a technical problem. The
19 census bureaus voting tabulation district are
20 based -- I can't bring that in congruence with the
21 2000 census geography. I could bring it into
22 congruence with the 1997 geography. So, there are
23 some technical limitations on our ability to do that
24 and insofar as somebody's interested in doing that.
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1 For example, looking at the 1994
2 election, that would be almost impossible to bring
3 into congruence with the 2000 census. Probably an
4 instrumental technical --.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But my question
6 is, if we had that data, is it possible to translate
7 this data so it could be distributed publicly to the
8 conferences so we can accumulate a full ten or
9 fifteen years worth of data.
10 MR. HEDGES: I am not sure if I got
11 the information exactly right but I think in 1990
12 there was a -- there are three hundred thousand this
13 time around. No one has a map. The further back in
14 time you try to go, the more intractable the problem
15 becomes from a technical point of view.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: If I could
17 interrupt, would it -- essentially what the Task
18 Force will be attempting to do is maximize the
19 information that we can technically maximize be made
20 available to each conference and to the public.
21 MR. HEDGES: That would be
22 certainly what I recommend.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Can we make
24 that data available for correspondences with the 1990
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1 census? Does that serve a purpose to do that?
2 MR. HEDGES: As a practical matter,
3 I think it doesn't serve a purpose, by and large the
4 political geography changes very rapidly. I think
5 there is not very much benefit, but we certainly ask
6 staff to take a look --.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think there
8 is a -- my question is -- and which I believe for the
9 first time an African America ran a statewide
10 election in a democratic -- and my question is, to
11 what extent that information and the voting
12 information from that race may have some significance
13 to what we do here, even though I acknowledge
14 that --.
15 MR. HEDGES: We can certainly ask
16 for --.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just about the
18 primary elections, does the political data space
19 include primary elections -- I think it's probably
20 obvious to everyone in this room there are certain
21 parts of the state where the primary election is the
22 fact of a -- general election and maybe not in every
23 case but in many cases to prove to be decisive to a
24 public office -- can we include those primary
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1 elections in the political data base?
2 MR. HEDGES: I know that for 2000,
3 people had already done some entry work on that.
4 There are no primaries involved there and you know
5 that we have for the '93, New York City -- but I am
6 not sure beyond that.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What about
8 primaries in the State Senate, State Assembly or city
9 counsel races? Do you again from the point of view
10 terminate the political cohesiveness to certain
11 voting groups that the -- that be strongly indicative
12 and the presence of --.
13 MR. HEDGES: I believe with respect
14 to those contests and -- and obvious voting rights
15 element associated where there is an African-American
16 candidate or Latino running against a white candidate
17 that we do have those primaries' data entry and they
18 can be made available -- certainly, they will be made
19 for the right analysis.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My final
21 question -- my understanding is that the database the
22 1997 odd year election, does it include the mayoral
23 races and the city counsel or is it just the mayoral
24 race?
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1 MR. HEDGES: In those instances, I
2 think -- I don't believe there are not -- they
3 require you know staffing staff work to change that.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So, there are
5 no -- in the odd year election 1997, there are no
6 data entered either.
7 MR. HEDGES: Insofar there are no
8 data. They are not available. Nobody has done the
9 work.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Let me do this.
11 I've proposed a series of amendments which purport to
12 talk about the political data -- I'll just pass this
13 around. What I'm trying to do is try to make sure
14 that the political data that we have and we're going
15 to make it available, is all the data necessary to
16 give us, I think, a full picture of what's happening
17 in New York in the course of last ten years and give
18 us a basis so we can project that with some
19 reasonable assurance all the tasks that we have to do
20 in the great portion of the process; balancing our
21 constitutional responsibilities, our voter rights
22 responsibility and our -- all of those things -- try
23 to put them together.
24 I think the report that was
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1 prepared by the staff is -- I think one way to look
2 at this and simply say these -- this is an attempt to
3 expand the political database that we would work off
4 of. But, I want to commend both Debbie and Lewis for
5 what I think is an excellent job in all of the
6 technical material.
7 I think having sat at the first
8 four or five hearings, we heard a lot of people talk
9 about the importance of having access to data and the
10 importance of giving people a chance to parlay that
11 data into a design for a district that represents
12 their communities and fits those communities together
13 much as we would put together a jigsaw puzzle.
14 So, I think this is a really strong
15 piece of work and it attends to most if not all of
16 the concerns we heard in the early stages of the
17 redistricting process. What I am proposing is simply
18 four areas where the political database will be
19 expanded to give us some additional information.
20 I know this may involve additional
21 staff work and they really fall into four areas:
22 One, is the political data prior to
23 the 1996.
24 Two, is the data for primary
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1 elections.
2 Three, is the data for county and
3 municipal elections for counties outside of the city
4 of New York. I think as we all know there has been
5 litigation in the course of this decade outside of
6 the city of New York and raising voter rights and
7 other questions and it seems to me that certainly in
8 our major counties in this state in which the status
9 of people protected by the voting rights act may be
10 an issue, you need to broaden the base and the last
11 piece is just a reminder that by the time we actually
12 get to the reapportionment process next spring, we're
13 going to have additional data from the 2001 elections
14 in the city of New York which may cast further light
15 and may give us frankly a most up-to-date picture of
16 what New Yorkers are thinking and how they are
17 voting, what their patterns are, questions of
18 political cohesiveness and so,
19 Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to move
20 the report for approval and I also ask that the
21 amendments be moved for either debate or
22 discussion --
23 SENATOR SKELOS: Before we move, we
24 should extend the courtesy to Mr. Ortloff if he would
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1 like to speak because he a member of the Task Force
2 also. What I would recommend, as we move forward,
3 that before we include this as part of the final
4 results of this meeting and we will have other
5 meetings that the technical people have the
6 opportunity to review it and see if it's actually
7 doable by the Task Force and as you know we will
8 accommodate your requests and try to make this as
9 open a process as possible, but I don't pretend to be
10 an expert on all this technology, so I would like to
11 hear from staff as to --.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think,
13 Senator, that is a perfectly acceptable proposal and
14 I am willing to put off the amendments to a later
15 time and I will pass the mic --
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: But in doing
17 this or making available, I would like to know that
18 the -- in fact that it is something that we can
19 physically accomplish.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right, I think
21 it's fair and -- and I think Mr. Hedges described
22 what the long term benefit would be. I am willing to
23 put the amendments off so the -- you can --.
24 DEAN G. SKELOS: Let me just point
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1 out the justice department at some point -- the
2 voting rights --.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN CHRIS ORTLOFF: I have
5 a few questions about the report, but before I do, I
6 think this is an opportune moment to reiterate some
7 of the things we discussed and some of the things we
8 talked about out in the field and in our hearings.
9 Particularly the concept of open
10 government with respect to highly technical processes
11 like this. To analogize for a minute, we can tell in
12 the traditional sense if this is an open meeting just
13 by seeing the door is open that people can come and
14 go in the room. But, we may not be able to tell
15 until we actually begin to try to work at it, whether
16 the technical nature of this process allows the
17 public to truly access the information in a
18 meaningful way. To carry the analogy a bit further,
19 the door to the computer may not really be open just
20 because the data port has a plug in it. The machines
21 need to be able to talk to one another. The language
22 needs to be consistent. There needs to be adequate
23 speed of communication. How many of us have logged
24 onto a Website only to find we didn't have the right
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1 plug in our computer to be able to read it. In that
2 context some of the questions that we have been
3 asking and we have been asked by the public, are
4 perhaps very arcane and seem very technical but I
5 suggest that it's really a matter of whether we have
6 an open process or not.
7 The analogy again will be, is the
8 lock on that door such that you can have a key on it.
9 We are going to talk about some very technical
10 things: The format of data files, the speed of
11 modems, the speed of telephone switches. These
12 issues can't all be discussed here today but these
13 are the issues that the Assembly Minority and I
14 myself and many other members who have testified
15 before us have been concerned about that.
16 So, with that in mind, I have a
17 couple questions about the proposal. The first one
18 has to do with the titled lines files and the term
19 attribute enhancements.
20 Can you explain what the attribute
21 enhancements means?
22 DEBRA A. LEVINE: Well, in certain
23 circumstances and we'll use one specific where I
24 think most people can relate to. The census bureau
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1 was not accurate, if you will, in its aggregation in
2 track and block information to the legislative
3 district level.
4 We've had to make corrections as to
5 these files so that when anyone attempts to use this
6 information, they will be able to distinguish the
7 information that was directed by the Task Force and
8 the information that was provided by the census and
9 other information that can be developed -- there is
10 also a document which will identify all of the
11 enhancements that the Task Force made to these files
12 and we feel that this will be a very productive asset
13 for making it more usable and accurate for the
14 public.
15 MR. HEDGES: As an example, of
16 being mislocated by a block -- not a big deal in one
17 level, but certainly the case that if we are going to
18 do this process properly, we should take advantage of
19 the fact that we discovered that, but we want to make
20 sure that if anyone is using that information that
21 this does differ from the census --.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: The gist of
23 this is -- is really well advised to use the data
24 that they could get on the CD, the Task Force will be
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1 provided and not the census data for the census
2 Website.
3 MS. LEVINE: Absolutely.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: So, to that
5 extent we have approved the process and we've made it
6 clear how to communicate. What is the -- in the vote
7 and enrollment data in the board of elections,
8 there's been a question -- I'm not sure here at the
9 Task Force, but in various other forms about the fact
10 that the New York State Board of Elections uses for
11 its certified enrollment data, both active and
12 inactive voters. Will we be using the State Board of
13 Elections?
14 MS. LEVINE: We use data received
15 from the local boards. What they give us, is what we
16 put in the system.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Will we be
18 able to know perhaps again in the -- file whether a
19 particular county's data is active voters only, or
20 whether it's both active and inactive? We won't
21 know?
22 MS. LEVINE: No.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: We won't
24 know? The question of the aggregation of the vote
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1 enrollment data comes up and I wanted to make sure
2 everybody figures at the Task Force.
3 MS. LEVINE: Voting tabulation
4 district.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Is it
6 aggregated at that level?
7 MS. LEVINE: The data is key
8 punched at the -- but in order to correlate the
9 census data with political data, there's only way and
10 that is to participate and in a census bureau --
11 blocked down which allowed us to draw election
12 districts where they fit with a census bureau, where
13 they did follow these physical features and election
14 features behind more than one. We have identified in
15 different areas features, where we would like that,
16 and work with them to explain why an election
17 district and the difference between 1990 level and
18 the 2000 level. It's mind boggling. It's very hard
19 to discern what exactly you're looking at, however in
20 the last ten years many of the census -- a lot of
21 local boards have cleaned up their work themselves
22 and as a result in the vote tabulation district --
23 they have more than one and so in reality and we can
24 identify for you, by listing for every county, for
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1 every VTD and what the relation is one to one.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: One other
3 question in the census districts and summary file, by
4 population figures down to the block level this data
5 file will include both the Task Force and the census
6 bureau. What is the Task Force population as opposed
7 to the census bureau population?
8 MS. LEVINE: I think I will turn it
9 to our GIS manager, Bruce Ruiz.
10 MR. BRUCE RUIZ: I think what you
11 are asking is whether there are -- and from the
12 census the reason there may be A discrepancy and AN
13 actual enhancement to a legislative -- and that
14 district had different blocks which we had originally
15 included in the census bureau made a mistake in
16 swapping a block with what are -- we have totals of
17 the Task Force, crime legislative boundaries and the
18 census.
19 MR. LEWIS M. HOPPE: But I don't
20 think the population would be different but the
21 aggregation to the district would be different.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: But in the
23 case of wrong block, will the block that the
24 prison --?
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1 MR. RUIZ: We will note the block
2 that it's supposed to be and where it is but the
3 census bureau will not make changes.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: So, what that
5 person is looking at, it's not significant.
6 MR. BRUCE RUIZ: Person -- no.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: When a person
8 is using this data that we, they will know what the
9 correct population is.
10 MR. RUIZ: Using our data -- using
11 our system, we can make a reference to that
12 particular block but it will not be -- to that
13 related item, the census block number and that will
14 still be associated. We will make a note of which
15 block it should be in.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: A user inputs
17 the Statewide block and -- points to the aggregated
18 district. When they click on that block, will the
19 census population be added to their --
20 MR. RUIZ: Yes.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: -- to their
22 merging district? Will that not lead them astray to
23 conclude that they have?
24 MR. RUIZ: I can see where that can
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1 be. We can work around that with a -- for the people
2 that are doing districting and there may be other
3 errors like that which we have discovered.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: But I think
5 you did a tremendous job so far.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Let me ask you a
7 question. Will there be a staff type person
8 available to help the public in terms of questions
9 they may have?
10 MR. LEVINE: Absolutely.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I would
12 suggest Mr. Chairman that the Website should have
13 frequently asked questions with an answer to them.
14 MS. LEVINE: We will provide AS
15 much introductory information that we can.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I think it
17 will be important that they get the question
18 answered.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Do you have any
20 question, Mr. Bruy?
21 MR. BRUY: No.
22 MR. HEDGES: I think it is also
23 part of the recommendation of the two co-executive
24 directors that the Task Force be prepared to accept
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1 plans submitted by the public whether those plans be
2 submitted as a paper map or as a population report or
3 whether they be submitted electronically or
4 physically, whether they be comprehensive plans or
5 single district plans.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: You said single
7 districts? I believe we did them about ten years
8 ago.
9 MR. HEDGES: We did indeed and my
10 recollection on the Assembly side, that we had
11 something in the neighborhood of one hundred and
12 fifty plans submitted by the public that we looked
13 at, incorporated in our thought process, forwarded to
14 our justice department and made available to anybody
15 who wished to look at them and their recommendations
16 is that we do that again.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Questions?
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one about
19 record keeping so that end meets. First, I want to
20 thank the directors for getting the information from
21 the first several hearings but my only question is --
22 my question about the omission letters and the copies
23 to the members and that all the members should get
24 any copies of that.
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1 MR. LEVINE: Anything that has come
2 to my attention -- everything is going to be taken
3 care of.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Thank
5 you. I just want to say that it bears repeating
6 that -- I wanted to commend the staff members for
7 putting together this sketch and if there are any
8 complications or problems that come up in the
9 information gathering or the information dispensing,
10 please bring it to the attention of the commission
11 members because I think we are committed to making
12 this process as open as possible.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I think it
14 will be appropriate if we are to have a motion and
15 adapted the report and the -- as official motion what
16 have you, of this Task Force -- so that it be on the
17 record, that -- at least at this point, our point
18 getting the data access to the various conferences
19 and to the public and if there is no other discussion
20 about it, I would so move that we do adopt the report
21 of the co-executive directors as the format for data
22 access for the conferences and Task Force and that it
23 be incorporated in our permanent plan of operation.
24 SENATOR SKELOS: In seconding that
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1 motion, I would like also direct the Task Force to
2 move as quickly as possible, and I know they are, to
3 make the information available to the members, their
4 staff, to the public, and expeditiously to the
5 completion of the Website so this could be as open
6 process as possible. So, I would like to second the
7 motion.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: -- All in
9 favor, say I --
10 MR. HOPPE: Aye.
11 MR. HEDGES: Aye.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Aye.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Aye.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Aye.
16 MR. BRUY: Aye.
17 MR. LEVINE: Aye
18 SENATOR SKELOS: All oppose, say
19 nay.
20 The motion is carried. May we
21 adjourn the meeting?
22 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Before we
23 adjourn, could I ask that the access report perhaps
24 in a slightly different version be available to all
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1 those who may come to our hearings and that in our
2 hearings, we expressly invite people to comment. To
3 comment on access to data when they come to testify
4 before us so we can hear from the public how they
5 feel it might be improved as we go along.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Along this
7 line as we talked about this report whoever prepared
8 this should be complemented and it is very well
9 written and it has answered many good questions. I
10 think that report should be made available to the
11 press. Very well done.
12 MR. LEVINE: Been my pleasure.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Can I ask a
14 couple of questions about the future of hearings,
15 about hearing notices and about whether we will have
16 hearings following the completion of the draft plan.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: That would be an
18 appropriate subject for the Task Force at a future
19 date.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Are there
21 meeting dates set for --?
22 SENATOR SKELOS: But there will be
23 because as I did indicate that at that time bring up
24 Senator Dollinger's reserve motion.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: My only
2 question with respect to standards and understanding
3 is to ask perhaps Dr. Hedges or the staff
4 co-directors explain what the constitutional
5 constraints are on the district. We are a State that
6 has very limited rules and standards in our law, but
7 I think it will be instructive if they know what they
8 are.
9 MR. HEDGES: I could certainly talk
10 briefly on that. The most important of those state
11 restraints are stated in the constitution. And as it
12 relates to state legislative lines, really there are
13 three major rules. One is abbreviated in the town --
14 rules the second is abbreviated as the block and the
15 third gets abbreviated -- the town rule says unless a
16 town is other than a district, you can't divide it.
17 That's intended to provide a
18 community of interest standard. The second rule, the
19 town border, is an equaling population standard. It
20 says, except for some other State purpose, that you
21 need to propose legislative district -- that there
22 are -- people enough in our population that there is
23 no town on their common border that can be moved to
24 the adjacent borders. But once you are inside a
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1 county and you are proposing legislative district --
2 a similar rule in the state constitution with respect
3 to cities and this anticipates the block. They could
4 be moved to the adjacent districts and you must do
5 it. That's the source of an awful lot of jagged
6 lines or an awful lot of -- if the town is the same
7 rule that is stated in the constitution, there is no
8 clear constitutional requirement to do that but there
9 is a matter of state policy as long back as anybody
10 that has been alive has. There's population
11 constraints -- those community of interest
12 constraints are pretty powerful and they certainly
13 operate and give legislative guidance and -- and are
14 certainly reasons that people have used in court to
15 challenge the proposals made by the legislature.
16 And, thirdly, certainly with no less status and the
17 voting rights act is a constraint on the policy
18 making of the legislature. There has been a lot of
19 controversy, some of the cases originated in the
20 case. Perhaps most of the same use as in the 1970s
21 which has been the first instance when the voting act
22 has been underrated other than majority scale for
23 congressional. All of those constraints are well
24 beyond the power of the legislative --
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1 SENATOR SKELOS: And to point out
2 That in each district be brought one population which
3 is as hard to complete, we accomplished that ten
4 years ago and we as a state legislative and the --
5 MR. HEDGES: So, I think that those
6 constraints are going to be powerful.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: And one thing
8 I want to point out is with the district boundaries
9 for the congressional districts and members of
10 Congress shall be selected in the states and in a
11 manner prescribed by the state legislature. What
12 that really comes down to is that the plan needs a
13 majority vote and that I think it is something that
14 those who are concerned about political outcome
15 should have taken into consideration. It must in
16 fact be adopted by the State legislative or go to
17 court.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just perhaps a
19 slightly lighter note, that the man wearing a team
20 thirty one T-shirt -- he has been here every other
21 time and certainly for the audience -- you can
22 imagine the census prison lost track of -- we really
23 have some work cut out for us. And I would like to
24 emphasize that we have a lot of work to do and I
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1 think this is a good start and I would like to thank
2 also for getting this proposal together.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: We are
4 adjourned.
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1 I, Eva Baginski, do hereby certify that the
2 foregoing was taken by me, in the cause, at the time
3 and place, that the foregoing typewritten
4 transcription, consisting of pages number 1 to 34,
5 inclusive, is a true record prepared by me and
6 completed by Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc. from
7 materials provided by me.
8 ________________________________
9 Eva Baginski, Reporter
10 _________________Date
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